Perhaps a dumb theory question....

kurto · #1 10-12-2005, 06:12 PM

When someone raises PF and someone else (particularly if we're talking 2 people with a full buyin) reraises them, this goes back and forth until they're both all in... or you have 3 or more people doing such...

Are they all idiots?

The reason I ask, and let me know if I'm way off; I know in holdem, pocket Aces have such an advantage over any hand, that you're always happy and smart to get it all in preflop.

But my understanding is that the edge in Omaha (be it PLO or PLO8) is so much smaller, that it really is more a postflop game.

If I raise with a legitimate raising hand, and someone else also has a decent raising hand... is there any hand SO strong that it makes sense they everyone should rush to get it all in preflop? (in other words, if someone raises who I know only raises with legitimate 'good' hands, is there anything that I can get that I would rathar push and get it all in preflop regardless of what he may have?)

I've been thinking that these people getting in their stacks preflop are just gamblers (as opposed to smart poker players) But perhaps I'm just being weak tight or don't understand the game enough or the value of my hands?

#2 10-12-2005, 07:10 PM

Why is this stupid? If I have a hand that I am confident is a pre-flop favorite, I want as much money in the pot as possible. In the long run, I will make money.

Wintermute · #3 10-12-2005, 07:33 PM

Well, with AA23ds, or AA24ds, I'm happy to get it all in preflop every time, regardless of # of opponents. But I see what you're saying. In a three-way PF all-in situation, usually at least one person is being a dumbass.

emptyshell · #4 10-12-2005, 07:46 PM

Uhh, I'm not sure that's true. There seems to be a lot about preflop odds in O8 that I don't understand and multi-way pots is one of them. Check this out:

As Ad 3d 2h 0.308
2s Ac 3c Ah 0.330
Ks Qs Kd Qd 0.362

Cooker · #5 10-13-2005, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I'm not sure that's true. There seems to be a lot about preflop odds in O8 that I don't understand and multi-way pots is one of them. Check this out:

As Ad 3d 2h 0.308
2s Ac 3c Ah 0.330
Ks Qs Kd Qd 0.362

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this any differrent from worrying about the few holdem situations where AA isn't a favorite preflop? The reason this works out so badly is that with the exceptions of the flushes all he AA23 hands can do is split the pot with the other AA23 while when KKQQ gets lucky it gets the whole pot or quarters the AA23s. If you give 2 people AA in holdem and put a slew of PPs out against them, then the Aces will eventually become a dog since they are playing to split the profits while the others are playing to win the whole pot.

To illustrate a point:

Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ah 14575 1.71 487897 57.35 348196 40.93 0.221
As Ad 14575 1.71 487897 57.35 348196 40.93 0.221
8s 8h 209854 24.67 638156 75.02 2658 0.31 0.247
3c 3d 144786 17.02 703224 82.67 2658 0.31 0.171
2s 2h 118682 13.95 729328 85.74 2658 0.31 0.140

Now you are going to tell me you don't want to get all-in with Aces preflop in holdem. Its the ties that are killing the Aces here, and the same thing is happening in your example. Do something more reasonable like not making the side cards identical and you get

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ad 3d 2h 58845 68453 318978 112569 236787 19323 1940 0.401
4s Ac 5c Ah 46206 109697 277734 112569 41254 214581 1940 0.255
Ks Qs Kd Qd 135177 209281 290719 0 0 0 0 0.344

Which shows the better Aces hand would be getting much the best of it. However, while seeing AA45 taking the worst of it in a three way pot is a bit of a wakeup call, this is still a very convtrived example when that hand is extremely dominated by the other AA hand.

kurto · #6 10-13-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you give 2 people AA in holdem and put a slew of PPs out against them, then the Aces will eventually become a dog since they are playing to split the profits while the others are playing to win the whole pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its comparable.. because with 2 players have aces preflop, there's going to be so much PF action, that 99% of the time its going to be aces heads up against each other.

I would argue that you don't see 4 people getting it all in PF in No Limit Texas Holdem that often...

Cooker · #7 10-13-2005, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you give 2 people AA in holdem and put a slew of PPs out against them, then the Aces will eventually become a dog since they are playing to split the profits while the others are playing to win the whole pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its comparable.. because with 2 players have aces preflop, there's going to be so much PF action, that 99% of the time its going to be aces heads up against each other.

I would argue that you don't see 4 people getting it all in PF in No Limit Texas Holdem that often...

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is exactly the same, the reason the aces are doing poorly is not because they have no chance to improve or aren't winning very often, it is because they have to split most of the time when they win. Suppose one of the aces hands folds preflop,

pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 as ad 2d 3h - kd qd ks qs / ac ah 2s 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ad 2d 3h 259137 259137 240863 0 265424 0 0 0.606
Ks Qs Kd Qd 153108 240863 259137 0 0 0 0 0.394

Now the remaining AA23 is a nice favorite (I included the other AA23 as dead cards for this). It is the fact that the hands are exactly the same that is killing their chances and this will be an extremely odd occurence.

Wintermute · #8 10-13-2005, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I'm not sure that's true. There seems to be a lot about preflop odds in O8 that I don't understand and multi-way pots is one of them. Check this out:

As Ad 3d 2h 0.308
2s Ac 3c Ah 0.330
Ks Qs Kd Qd 0.362

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, what's "not true"? I merely offered opinions in my post, no attempt at a factual claim.

If anything, I think your post shows why shoving a/ AA23 is always a good idea... even with the absolute *worst* stacking of the deck against you, you have near-correct equity.

Not to mention, in my post I specified AA23 double-suited, where in your post, you made them single-suited. Of course, you had to in order to get the KKQQ enough equity to make your point. When you take away its flush draws:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 2s Ad 3d 18959 58720 258746 182534 0 0 265297 0.332
Ac 3c Ah 2h 34302 88073 229393 182534 0 0 265297 0.377
Ks Qs Kd Qd 120959 170673 329327 0 0 0 0 0.292

Get back in your hole, son.

DyessMan89 · #9 10-13-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I'm not sure that's true. There seems to be a lot about preflop odds in O8 that I don't understand and multi-way pots is one of them. Check this out:

As Ad 3d 2h 0.308
2s Ac 3c Ah 0.330
Ks Qs Kd Qd 0.362

[/ QUOTE ]

No content. But heres another 3 way likley example ...

pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ac 2d 4d 3d - kd 5d kh 6h - 2s as 6c jd
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 4d 3d 2d 46281 69509 426205 4286 128110 8567 122165 0.275
Kd 5d Kh 6h 160862 294595 204567 838 6466 136237 0 0.460
As 2s 6c Jd 61119 130950 364223 4827 10742 104110 122165 0.265

hachkc · #10 10-12-2005, 07:55 PM

Go watch the NL08 games at P*. I'm always amazed at the number of folks that'll go All-In preflop. I called one of these All-ins once with AA3Xss and won like $100 at the NL08 $1/$2 table.