open-limping from early positions

[newhizzle]

well im back up to 5/10 again, and while tonight the games have actually been very easy(and ive been running exceptionally well, up 160 BB for the night), i have been thinking about eliminating open-limping from early positions from my arsenal in tougher games

im thinking just throw out hands like JTs and QJs in games where im likely to be isolated if i limp, and make my minumim open raising standards(from early position) something like 77, KJs, ATs, KQo, and AJo, folding everything else

what do yall think of this?

[adios]

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im thinking just throw out hands like JTs and QJs in games where im likely to be isolated if i limp, and make my minumim open raising standards(from early position) something like 77, KJs, ATs, KQo, and AJo, folding everything else

what do yall think of this?

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I really like this forum, lots of good posts including the one you made. Why include middling pairs like 77,88, maybe even 99? Often your hand is marginal after the flop and you're out of position with a marginal hand with few outs. JTs and QJs actually represent a very small number of starting hands. I'm not saying I disagree, just wondering about the reasoning behind these standards you've proposed.

[brettbrettr]

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Why include middling pairs like 77,88, maybe even 99?

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All three of these hands are raises for me. 77 is close, I guess, but the other two aren't IMO.

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im thinking just throw out hands like JTs and QJs in games where im likely to be isolated if i limp, and make my minumim open raising standards(from early position) something like 77, KJs, ATs, KQo, and AJo, folding everything else

what do yall think of this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this forum, lots of good posts including the one you made. Why include middling pairs like 77,88, maybe even 99? Often your hand is marginal after the flop and you're out of position with a marginal hand with few outs. JTs and QJs actually represent a very small number of starting hands. I'm not saying I disagree, just wondering about the reasoning behind these standards you've proposed.

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i actually dont know the specific reasoning behind this, i would be interested in hearing it, but i know a lot of people on this forum recomend raising these hands, i have found that they are easier to play postflop when you raise them and they do have showdown value against a smaller field, when you limp with them you are pretty much playing them for set value, also i do think 77 and 88 are close and depend on table texture(im more inclined to raise at a tighter table), but im pretty much always raising 99

[adios]

Thanks for the sincere and honest reply. Ok as to why they're easier to play if you raise, I don't know how much easier it can be to play a hand where when you limp you encourage a multi-way pot and fold if you don't hit your set on the flop knowing that someone has you beat, you have few outs, and the pot isn't laying you enough to take a card off. I suppose someone could make an argument that they can read the situation accurately and decide when they're middling pair is best. But I would think the same reasons apply if you limp with them. If you tend to get the pot heads up when you raise then ok but I doubt if this happens very often when you raise UTG with 77. Maybe people just play marginal hands out of position alot better than I do which could certainly be the case. I know for me, with a marginal hand after the flop out of position, I know I'm going to fold some hands where I should see it through and see it through when I should fold. In other words I'm going to make some "mistakes" in those situations. I also think that perhaps it's done for image reasons but not sure and perhaps to make you harder to read after the flop. For me because everyone else does it isn't good enough. I'm also fairly certain from a pre-flop equity standpoint, there's no great advantage to raising with these middling pairs but could be convinced otherwise for sure. Again thanks for your reply.

[brettbrettr]

I think getting rid of these hands entirely would be giving up too much. Yes, be conscious of when the table has tightened and don't always limp if you don't think its a good idea.

Also, if you notice a lot of people getting isolated, and I never thought I'd advise this, limp-reraise some sucker.

[mtdoak]

Open limping is usually a big mistake, esp at tighter tables. Trouble hands include hands like JTs or QJs, but you can easily raise hands like KQo, KJs, and AJo and even ATo. Just keep in mind the texture of the table with this raises. At a looser table where you can expect 2-3 cold calls, it might not be a mistake to raise JTs or QJs in EP, but it would probably be a huge mistake to raise ATo.

If you are in a loose-weak table with lots of people limping in, then I see don't see a problem with open-limping drawing hands like suited connecters and small pairs hoping to flop a set.

Just be prepared to toss the hand if you don't hit on the flop.

In tighter games with fewer people seeing flop and more pre-flop raising, this is a good way to slowly bleed chips (or not so slowly).

Do you have a plan for getting raised/isolated then flopping top pair with medium kicker? Do you know if you'll bet/check-raise/check-call/check-fold?

If not, then you're playing heads up hoping to flop a straight or flush draw without any other real outs.

[Akimka]

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Open limping is usually a big mistake, esp at tighter tables. Trouble hands include hands like JTs or QJs, but you can easily raise hands like KQo, KJs, and AJo and even ATo. Just keep in mind the texture of the table with this raises. At a looser table where you can expect 2-3 cold calls, it might not be a mistake to raise JTs or QJs in EP, but it would probably be a huge mistake to raise ATo.

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Can you please take any further with it? Is offsuit hands drop in value so much that you can consider folding of ATo/AJo/KQo in EP in loose games and raise first in with QJs/JTs and so and vice verse for tight tables (muck medium suited conn. and raise FI with medium offsuit A-high and K-high (KQ))

[Fat Nicky]

If you have confindence in your postflop play, tossing hands like QJs or JTs is a mistake IMO, unless a lot of pots are routinely getting 3-bet.

Plus, suited broadways are so much fun to play, you often flop all kinds of fun straight draws and flush draws.