How to fold overpairs? Help me learn!

[ericlambi]

I have a huge problem folding overpairs, and to a lesser extent, TPTK. To me, the issue is that by the time I have enough information to feel that I'm beat, the pot odds are great enough relative to my stack size that I feel committed. Here is an example (made up) from 6 max . . . teach me when and how to fold!

6 max, everyone has 50BB stacks
Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], raises to 4BB.
2 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Pot size pre-flop: 13BB. My stack: 46BB.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Not a terrible flop, not great. SB checks. Hero bets 10BB. CO folds. SB (min-)raises to 20BB.

Pot size at this point: 43BB. My stack: 36BB.

Now to me, this is decision time. The villain could have a ton of different hands in this position -- AK, KQ, KJ, QJ, two diamonds, or he could interpret your bet as standard continuation and just be testing you with some crap like AJ. Of course, you could be in trouble vs 44,TT, or even KK. It seems to me you are probably ahead at least 50% of the time here. Agree or disagree?

If you call the min raise, your stack size becomes 26BB and the pot now has 53BB. Even if the villain open pushes the turn, can you fold getting 3-1?

Raising doesn't help much, even a min-raise leaves you with a tiny stack and a huge pot -- you can't fold the hand at any future point after this.

So when and how do you get away from this hand (or do you)?

The same dilemma comes if the villain calls your flop bet, the turn is a blank, and he checks to you. You cannot make a meaningful bet without pot committing can you?

What if the flop is slighly less scary, say

T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

or even if it is completely drawless:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

How does the decision change?

Does the villain's c/r size matter? If it is all-in versus a min-raise, does that change anything? What about somewhere in between -- 25BB?


I just can't figure out how to get away from these hands with the given stack sizes. Admittedly, the problem isn't quite as bad if you only go to the flop with 2 players, meaning you start from a smaller pot size.

Any general advice about how and when you get away from these hands? I'd love to hear it!

Thanks,

Eric

[punter11235]

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have a huge problem folding overpairs, and to a lesser extent, TPTK.

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First step is to realize that TPTK is usually much better hand than an overpair.

[ericlambi]

Errr . . . other than the fact that TPTK has more outs to improve, how do you figure? Since one of villain's most likely holdings in this scenario (and many other possible scenarios) is TPTK and you have that beat, I don't understand your logic.

[RiverFenix]

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[ QUOTE ]
have a huge problem folding overpairs, and to a lesser extent, TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

First step is to realize that TPTK is usually much better hand than an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

[punter11235]

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Errr . . . other than the fact that TPTK has more outs to improve, how do you figure? Since one of villain's most likely holdings in this scenario (and many other possible scenarios) is TPTK and you have that beat, I don't understand your logic.


[/ QUOTE ]

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?


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How is this true?


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Consider 2 situations, first you raise with AA and flop is 853 or sth like that, second: you raise with AK and flop is K83.
AK scenario is way better for preflop raiser, especially in SSNL, because :
a)your opponent has set 50% more often against AA than AK (guess why)
b)your opponent often has KQ,KJ or even K10/K9 crap and WILL pay off in SSNL , while good paid off with low pair like 77 or sth like that is less probable in overpair scenario.
c)you opponent is more likely to have str8, str8 draw or some weird 2pairs in overpair scenario than in AK scenario.

The only problem is that against TPTK your opponent may have an overpair (AA vs AK flop Kxx, KK vs AQ flop Qxx and so on) but often preflop action is strong indication that its not the case. Simply, AK is more often good on Kxx flop than AA is on xxx flop

To further explanation read Super System and Brunson explanation of it.

Best wishes

[gol4pro]

in 6-max, I'm all in on the turn here EVERY TIME given the stack sizes without a REALLY damn good read.

Raise more PF to get money committed on flop if you want.

Folding overpairs in SSNL is usually read-based.

I see more reraises recently as a defense against continuation bet. Check the flop against a raise and then re-raise when I think villian misses. I do it myself sometiems. I don't see too many instances where your behind here. TPTK is a likely bet as is trying to pick up a free card with the diamond draw if you check the turn. I call and then come back hard on the turn assuming it's not a big scare card...

[RoundersRocks!]

You can't figure it out without a read. Folding overpairs is a big part of what reading is all about.

To avoid the situation without reads, you can raise more pre-flop. It either avoids the flop completely or forces a greater amount of the action to a occurat a point where you are definately in the lead. With shorter stack sizes it makes a diffrence.

[XChamp]

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First step is to realize that TPTK is usually much better hand than an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this true?

[BigBiceps]

Push all in on the flop. If you are beat oh well, but KQ and junk will call enough in the long run to make you a winner.

You want to charge JQ or diamonds to see the turn.