Defending BB with low pocket pair simple question

[thesharpie]

Against an EP raise against an unknown, what's the lowest PP you play in the BB?

[somapopper]

66 I guess... but I think I should probably take it up to 88 as I'm not crazy about trying to take the pot away from the ep raiser without making a set or a straight draw.

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
66 I guess... but I think I should probably take it up to 88 as I'm not crazy about trying to take the pot away from the ep raiser without making a set or a straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is 66 really any different from 22 here.

HU, 88 unimproved can be a fine hand. If the pot's multiway then you can start thinking about set value, but for the rest, just get better at player postflop.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
How is 66 really any different from 22 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

see i thought about this as well. my initial post was "what's the difference between pocket pairs? a pair is a pair."

i really think the answer is you have to also play for something other than a set and if you get your set, how strong is it to favor against redraws.

[winky51]

redraws from 2% to 25%.

a 7% hand is the opponent having top pair, backdoor flush, and backdoor straight.

a 15% redraw is backdoor flush, inside straight.

a 25% is a flush draw

a 13% is gut straight draw

a 22% if the opponent having trips AA6 board with AK vs 66.

So really 1:7.5 on your money is not as good as you think. You need 10:1. If they cap the flop and call down your looking at 11.5:1. Thats if you got them beat.

If you look at a PF raiser and a cold caller then thats 5.5:1 preflop odds. You can easily get 5 more SBs. 2 on the flop 1 turn, 1 river if the cold caller folds. And if you hit a set vs 2 callers its not that much difference on win %. Also if the 2nd player is calling down he is feeding your wallet so let say he calls the flop and turn thats an extra 4 SB (assume you raise the flop) Now were looking at 12-14 SBs won. 5 PF, 4-6 on the flop, 2 on the turn, maybe 2 on the river.

12-14:1 looks more like its worth the 10:1 shot at hitting the set and winning.

[@bsolute_luck]

sorry bro. maybe i'm not a math guy, but folding in BB simply because an EP raises: you missing a lot of BBs. playing "no set no bet" thinking when calling to the flop is pretty sad too.

and maybe i'm way off or something but a tight EP raiser, even if we throw in 99 and 88:

non-pair combos: AK(16), AQ(16), AJ(16), KQ(16): 64
paired combos: AA-88(6 each): 42 combos

am i missing something? over 50% of the time, we're up against UI overcards.

[adios]

66 is alot different than 22 IMO when you consider that a suspected blind stealer has something like Ax in his range of hands, Kxs or even maybe Qxs. A blind stealer with this range of hands will have 2 overcards to your pair of deuces more than he will when you have 66. If the blind stealer pairs his low card, 66 will be ahead more often FWIW.

[winky51]

Blind stealer is different from the EP raiser.

BUT raises I am at least calling with a pair. Usually I raise.

[somapopper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
66 I guess... but I think I should probably take it up to 88 as I'm not crazy about trying to take the pot away from the ep raiser without making a set or a straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is 66 really any different from 22 here.

HU, 88 unimproved can be a fine hand. If the pot's multiway then you can start thinking about set value, but for the rest, just get better at player postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Biggest thing is that 22 gets counterfited more often than 66.

Additionally, somebody mentioned A's making st8s and when you hit your set with 22, the likleyhood of a backdoor straight draw for the EP raiser increases.

Granted these are small considerations, but I'm not even sure these hands can be turned into +EV against decent opponents.

If you're primarily calling to try to take the pot away from a TAG EP raiser, how many bets do you think you're going to have to put in before you can figure out if he has broadway cards or a big pp that he's not folding? Do you think he's giving up broadways on the flop? When you see an A or a K on the flop you're folding right? How about a Q? Unless he has exactly AK that Q means you're behind again.

As far as I can see, the only way to hope to make money with this call is if you can squeeze about 4 more BBs out of your opponent when you hit the set on the flop. Maybe more, as set over set is gonna happen here more often then we like.

Give me a line that's +EV against his range and not just broadway cards that don't hit on the flop, and I'll happily change my mind, but until then I think it's spewing chips.

[Carmine]

I complete with any PP. If you don't hit your set the board and player determine my actions which will be folding on the flop about 70% of the time.