Common Hand 2

exist · #1 10-02-2005, 11:07 AM

UTG is 21/10/1.2 over 150 hands. I thought that given the UTG limp at a table with few multiway pots, his likely hand preflop was a middling PP and not something like KQ, KJs. So that was my ratinale for just calling down. I thought it was a way ahead way behind situation, but was I too passive or should I find a fold somewhere?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.66 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.33 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.33 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.33 BB

flawless_victory · #2 10-02-2005, 12:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
should I find a fold somewhere?

[/ QUOTE ]OMG man, no.
raise the turn... you have top kicker!

Fianchetto · #3 10-02-2005, 01:11 PM

You shouldn't be looking for a fold, you should be deciding which street to raise. Turn raise is probably best, but I don't mind 3-betting the flop.

exist · #4 10-02-2005, 02:50 PM

Thanks for the replies. Let's say I raise the turn and UTG 3 bets, I fold right? If so, that's a better line than just calling down. Thoughts on folding to a turn 3 bet?

DeeJ · #5 10-02-2005, 04:17 PM

I raise the turn here. If he's got a jammy flush or straight draw he's gonna pay. If he's only got KJ or KQ I've got him nicely. AK we're tied, but it's the least likely because you don't really want plenty of callers with AK. If he's got me beat and he 3-bets I might find a fold or call him down kinda 50/50 of the time.

W. Deranged · #6 10-02-2005, 05:27 PM

Seems like a standard turn raise. Sometimes I'll wait until the river to raise, depending on my read.

As played you are almost certainly missing value here.

climber · #7 10-02-2005, 07:33 PM

Too passive...I can't really see playing that way and being profitable at all. Your better be ready to cry a lot when they river some ghetto 2 pair on you cause you never bet the best hand for value or raised to charge draws.

#8 10-02-2005, 10:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is 21/10/1.2 over 150 hands. I thought that given the UTG limp at a table with few multiway pots, his likely hand preflop was a middling PP and not something like KQ, KJs. So that was my ratinale for just calling down. I thought it was a way ahead way behind situation, but was I too passive or should I find a fold somewhere?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.66 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.33 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.33 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.33 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
I like this line against the type of player that would make this move on a weak hand/bluff, except I would usually raise the river. However there is one inherent weakness to this line in this situation....the pot is too big. On the turn, if the villain has a hand like a 5 outer he has the odds to draw against you, becuz of this I would raise the turn and hope to induce him to make a bad fold. In a smaller pot I dont mind just calling down and raising the river against many aggressive players, since I dont want to raise them off their bluffs on the turn and Ill let them draw to their possible 5 outers as long as they are not drawing correctly.

GoodOL · #9 10-02-2005, 11:04 PM

Reads are important here. Sometimes being passive gets you more.

1. If he's bluffing, you get more by just calling.

2. If he's behind and able to release a three outer (if he has a weak king) to a turn raise, but would bet river if you just call...you get more (you will lose the pot 1 time in 15 but get an extra bet the other 14 times).

3. If he's capable of three betting with a weaker hand, or a hand that you have the odds to call, you might incorrectly fold.

4. If he has a monster, you will know you didn't release the winner and won't lose anything extra (call, call vs. raise, fold....two bets).

Of course, if he's the typical player...that will call you down with a weak king or underpair....raise the turn.

exist · #10 10-03-2005, 11:45 AM

Let me say again that I appreciate all the replies. The only thing I knew about this player was his stats. I'm not familiar with full game stats so I'm not exactly sure what kinds of hands he might be limping with. I thought he would limp with medium and possibly low pocket pairs. I wasn't sure if he would limp with weak kings however.

So when he check raised the flop, he was IMO based on his stats, very unlikely to be bluffing. If he would limp with KQ and KJ just as often as with 88 and 77, then I would be a large favorite 16 combos to 6 combos. In any case, at the time I thought--maybe incorrectly--that I was a dog to hands he would play like this (including the flop action). This time he did have a set with 77, but I think raising the turn is probably better than just calling down. I guess a lot of this is opponent specific. One line an opponent took in a similar situation was to call the turn raise and bet the river, but even with that action it makes raising the turn no worse than calling down. I guess the real way to exploit AK raising the turn is to call the turn raise and check raise the river.