better way to play KK with pair on flop?

tommo · #1 09-30-2005, 09:43 PM

villain has vpip (66.7,11.11) and appears to be an overaggressive, not folding often enough kind of player
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($256.40)
SB ($588)
Hero ($663)
UTG ($430)
MP ($0)
CO ($529.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls $6, CO raises to $20, 1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $17,Hero raises to $94, 1 fold, CO calls $80, SB folds.

Flop: ($226) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)</font>
Hero bets $224</font>

spino1i · #2 09-30-2005, 10:04 PM

I wouldnt bet so much right off the bat, he's drawing incredibly weak to you (3 outs at most with an A, 2 outs with a pocket pair). If he has a Q you dump a lot of money to him. Instead bet a little and see how he reacts.

rwperu34 · #3 10-01-2005, 02:00 AM

If he is the type of player who will bluff at the flop quite often I would go for a check raise all in. Most of the time I just check this flop and hope he tries to make a move with AK, JJ, or TT. Heck, he could value bet pocket pairs as low as 55.

Since your bet is very close to pot commiting, if I was to bet, I'd probably just push. If you want to send out a feeler bet, $100 will get it done.

wutevahung · #4 10-01-2005, 03:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If he is the type of player who will bluff at the flop quite often I would go for a check raise all in. Most of the time I just check this flop and hope he tries to make a move with AK, JJ, or TT. Heck, he could value bet pocket pairs as low as 55.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think you should check/raise all in here, i mean it is ok probably against a player who is overly aggressive since he wont be able to fold a lot of hands, but the villain still has some decent mount of money in front of him, lets say he bets like 150, dat leaves him like 300 behind he could still fold if he doesnt have the q, and fold his tt jj or something else.

how about bet out? i think it is more obvious that you are trying to check/raise him when u check in a situation like this, because if you dont have it you are gonna bet to make him fold, the only situatoin you woudl check is to hope he can catch up, but the thing is, he can have 55 and check behind you and turn comes a 5 or something, you wont know the card helped him and he is gonan break you for sure. and 3 aces is not that bad, still could hurt and if you check the flop and ace comes on the turn, you basically give him the pot for free

also, since he wont b folding a lot of hands, if he has tt or jj, he would probably raise you all in here if you bet, dats better than do it on ur own eh?

and if you go all in on a flop like that, i think only a full house or trips gonan call you

checking is not a good idea, bet out, 150-200, if he raises or calls then you can decide by then

JMa · #5 10-01-2005, 06:16 AM

why isnt checking good?

Villain is likely drawing very slim. Also, checking here may villain think 88+ is good here. A bet here is bad imho.

Kirkrrr · #6 10-01-2005, 07:30 AM

My knee-jerk raection was to try and check-raise all in, but I agree with one of the previous posters - he will have enough money left to get away from hands you beat but insta-call with any Q or AA. Ace on the turn will make your hand very hard to play as well.

Bet out for about half-pot and see what he does. If called, I go into defensive mode and try to get to a showdown as I'm not quite as worried about free cards after the turn. If he pushes, life will get very difficult but I think you'd have to fold - you've defined your hand pretty clearly, I don't think he would try to get you to make a big laydown w/out the goods.

Kirk

wutevahung · #7 10-01-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why isnt checking good?

Villain is likely drawing very slim. Also, checking here may villain think 88+ is good here. A bet here is bad imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

1st he still has enough money to get away if you check raise him.

2nd he might check after you and make a full house with his small pocket pair for free, or like ak and get an ace

3rd he knows he is beat after you check raise him, but he wont know that if you just bet out, he might even raise you with worse hands.

4th your hand is not strong enough to give free cards. in this case, all opponent need is 1 card (if we assume that he has acex or pp) to beat you, and unfortunately we dont know which card is that, so no free cards. he might be drawing slim, but once you check, then his implied odds = infinite, so checking is -ev

5th while checking might make his 88+ seems good if he is a novice, but not after you raise him, he could easily get away with it.

JMa · #8 10-01-2005, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why isnt checking good?

Villain is likely drawing very slim. Also, checking here may villain think 88+ is good here. A bet here is bad imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

1st he still has enough money to get away if you check raise him.

2nd he might check after you and make a full house with his small pocket pair for free, or like ak and get an ace

3rd he knows he is beat after you check raise him, but he wont know that if you just bet out, he might even raise you with worse hands.

4th your hand is not strong enough to give free cards. in this case, all opponent need is 1 card (if we assume that he has acex or pp) to beat you, and unfortunately we dont know which card is that, so no free cards. he might be drawing slim, but once you check, then his implied odds = infinite, so checking is -ev

5th while checking might make his 88+ seems good if he is a novice, but not after you raise him, he could easily get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

1st i didnt check w/ the intention to check-raise.

2nd i didnt check w/ the intention to check-raise.

3rd i didnt check w/ the intention to check-raise.

and so forth.

Sadat X · #9 10-01-2005, 02:48 PM

With position, you should strongly consider checking the flop and raising the turn. OOP, you need to bet here and extract money out of this guy. Given the read, I really like the play.

mgsimpleton · #10 10-01-2005, 06:21 PM

uh villain is overaggressive, he's either waaaaaay ahead or waaaaaay behind and you're going to put him to massive amounts of pressure where he'd have to be nuts to bluff raise all in? yes there's a better way to play this flop, first thing that comes to mind is "not badly." but seriously, come on... he's overaggro, let him try to bluff you on this hand, or maybe he has a decent pair, let him call three medium bets with it. i don';t usually have any trouble getting it in against this type of opponent if i think he is capable of putting a move on me, so let him!