10-10 UTG

[Brad F.]

I've run into multiple problems lately with playing 10-10 UTG later in tournies.

Early in tournies I like to limp with them in EP, and mostly play them for set value. With the looser play, a raise UTG doesn't mean a whole lot and more players will call.

However, say we're at the first ante lever of 100/200/25. You have a stack of 5700 which is right around average. 3 stacks have you covered 5 stacks don't.

You are dealt 10-10 offsuit UTG. What is your standard play here? If you raise 3xBB, when you get reraised it's an automuck as the reraising range against an UTG raiser is pretty small. If you get called by an opponent or two you are playing a difficult flop out of position. So is limping the norm in this type of situation?

Just wondering how others play it. Thanks!

Brad

P.S. I only left the 10-10 offsuit there because I'm a moron and that's what I typed at first. So I left it for comical value. I play suited 10-10 very differently...

[fnurt]

I disagree that it is an automuck if you get reraised. Maybe YOUR range for reraising an UTG raiser is small, but that doesn't apply to everyone. Stack sizes, position of the reraiser, and read all have to be taken into account.

[locutus2002]

TT is alot of hand, and it plays well after many flops. If you won't call the raise you shouldn't be playing the hand.

See "Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends"

[locutus2002]

Bruce is the poster

[ QUOTE ]
However, say we're at the first ante lever of 100/200/25. You have a stack of 5700 which is right around average. 3 stacks have you covered 5 stacks don't.

You are dealt 10-10 offsuit UTG. What is your standard play here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Iiiccckkk, there's one of those words again .... standard .... as in usual, always, never .... and so on.

Maybe it's just me, but those are bad words when trying to analyze situations. What may be "standard" and perfect for one situation, may be positively horrible for another.

But enough pontificating ...

First questions right away are 1) how close are you to a piece of the cheese; 2) what are your opponents on your left playing like and 3) what has your recent UTG play been like (as well as players response to it)?

For 1), it sounds like you still have a bit of work to get to the money. You have a reasonably good shot to cash, but are far from a lock. Just this consideration by itself tells me to muck the TT. It is easier to get into trouble with than to make a killing with.

That point aside ....

For 2) if opponents to the left are all non-thinking, weak passive types, then I play the Tens in a heartbeat with a slightly more than minimum raise. If one or two opponents on the left are smart, aggressive, thinking types, possibly better players than me, then I probably let the Tens go in a heartbeat.

For 3) had you been playing a lot from UTG, or little if any at all? Had you shown anything down from UTG? Would any of the players remember? If you have been raising a lot from UTG or EP and getting to see the flop without getting reraised, then perhaps your bets are getting some respect and you could see the flop relatively cheaply again.

Personally, at this stage of the tournament, I treat TT UTG much in the same vein as hands like JJ, 99, 88, AQo, AJo, etc. I'll play 'em if I think I can see a flop without too much pain and aggravation.

But at the same time, I have to be prepared to bid adieu if someone comes over the top strong or if the flop completely misses me and appears to catch one or more opponents.

You have in excess of a 50% chance of at least one overcard coming on the flop. If you have one or more callers and the flop comes overcard(s) and blank(s), then you stand a reasonable chance of drawing to two outs after the flop. This is not a scenario to be throwing a lot of chips at.

If that means someone can push me off the pot THIS TIME, then so be it. I'm still alive to fight another battle. Maybe the next time I get AA or KK UTG, then I play 'em the exact same way and try to set a trap.

[bweiser8311962]

Unless I have a great read on the reraiser, I'm willing to push. I only call if the reraise is not a significant enough portion of my stack that I'm pot-committed.

I've had A/K, A/Q UTG and raised and been reraised by JKo in MTTs, so I'm willing to throw all-in with good hands.

[nath]

Oh man, Spee, no offense, but I disagree with basically everything you wrote.

[ QUOTE ]
First questions right away are 1) how close are you to a piece of the cheese; 2) what are your opponents on your left playing like and 3) what has your recent UTG play been like (as well as players response to it)?

For 1), it sounds like you still have a bit of work to get to the money. You have a reasonably good shot to cash, but are far from a lock. Just this consideration by itself tells me to muck the TT. It is easier to get into trouble with than to make a killing with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy crap this is weak tight. Folding tens with an M from 10? If you're far from the money, it's a BETTER time to gamble-- you need chips to get there! And who gives a damn about just cashing anyway? Did you come to win or make 50% of your buyin? You don't have to make a "killing" with the tens-- but you should try to make something.

(BTW, I think the most important factor is a pair of tens with an M of 10. First in, this is a raise every time. Further action will cause factors like my table image, opponent's style, and stage of tournament to come into play.)

[ QUOTE ]
For 2) if opponents to the left are all non-thinking, weak passive types, then I play the Tens in a heartbeat with a slightly more than minimum raise. If one or two opponents on the left are smart, aggressive, thinking types, possibly better players than me, then I probably let the Tens go in a heartbeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand. Aggressive players-- those more likely to play marginal hands-- are going to scare you off your strong ones? If tens aren't good enough to play against good players, what is, exactly? And more importantly, how are you going to get enough of those hands to win the tournament?
Aggressive players win tournaments <i>because</i> they can make you doubt and lay down hands like this.

[ QUOTE ]
For 3) had you been playing a lot from UTG, or little if any at all? Had you shown anything down from UTG? Would any of the players remember? If you have been raising a lot from UTG or EP and getting to see the flop without getting reraised, then perhaps your bets are getting some respect and you could see the flop relatively cheaply again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you severely underrate the value of taking the pot down preflop. That's your first goal, and if it hasn't worked, at least you've charged people to draw to overcards-- the point is to get money in as a favorite whenever you can. And don't be scared if there's an overcard on the flop. It depends which overcard, how many opponents there are, etc. Evaluate each situation as it happens.
(Also, I think your general image is a much better guide than your specific UTG image. You'll probably have an easier time remembering your recent play as a guide for your current image-- and since even you are aggressive, you will still fold plenty of UTG hands, you may not have enough samples to tell you anything meaningful.)

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, at this stage of the tournament, I treat TT UTG much in the same vein as hands like JJ, 99, 88, AQo, AJo, etc. I'll play 'em if I think I can see a flop without too much pain and aggravation.

[/ QUOTE ]

With an M of 10 I'm MORE aggressive with these hands. I mean, I need chips! It's time to gamble a little. I'm HAPPY to be all-in as a 55-45 favorite, or to get some money in the pot with a solid hand. As your stack gets shorter, you must be willing to take smaller edges in order to keep moving through the field.

[ QUOTE ]
You have in excess of a 50% chance of at least one overcard coming on the flop. If you have one or more callers and the flop comes overcard(s) and blank(s), then you stand a reasonable chance of drawing to two outs after the flop. This is not a scenario to be throwing a lot of chips at.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you start by throwing a lot of chips at your high pair! Worry about the flop when it comes-- if it comes. Each situation, each street, is unique, so deal with it as it happens. Don't dream up scary scenarios that cause you to play so passively that they come true.

[ QUOTE ]
If that means someone can push me off the pot THIS TIME, then so be it. I'm still alive to fight another battle. Maybe the next time I get AA or KK UTG, then I play 'em the exact same way and try to set a trap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, maybe you do, but more likely you continue to let your stack get whittled away because AA and KK don't come often enough.
I can't *imagine* letting known aggressive players push me off tens with shallow stacks. Again, what are you waiting for? Are you hoping to only be all-in with 70-30 edges or better?

Your advice strikes me as extremely weak-tight. I think if you play this way with these hands with these size stacks you will find your stack chopped down to all-in-or-fold mode in a hurry. And when you finally get a premium hand and double up... well, you're still so short that to have a chance to go far you need to do it again. And again. And again... and even 80-20 favorites lose once out of five times. (You could probably collect a lot of bad beat stories.)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. Aggressive players-- those more likely to play marginal hands-- are going to scare you off your strong ones?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps this is a good starting point for understanding.

TT UTG in full table, 10-player, no limit hold 'em is not, and I repeat NOT, a strong hand!

With any strong, tricky, aggressive players to your immediate left or right, TT UTG is a marginal holding at best.

It is a middle pair, period. In UTG, it is a middle pair out of position. Further, in the pre-flop phase, every player at the table still has yet to act.

Over-committing in these situations is not that different than throwing live chips after dead chips on the river.

Let's say you open raise with your TT UTG? What hands are likely to cold call? Or reraise? Let me tell you, it ain't pretty. Bigger pairs, big overcards/connectors often suited. The point is, you typically won't get action from lesser hands or those with worse than a 3-2 chance to outflop you. Maybe you are already drawing to 2 outs and just don't know it yet.

The whole point is with TT or JJ or other middle pair, you have to play them strong or not play them at all. If you play them strong, then you risk throwing a lot of live chips at a hand that could very easily make them dead chips. Is this really a desirable scenario? I think not.

{{Short-handed is a whole different matter altogether. These comments are directed at full table games.}}

If you disagree with everything I wrote, then either I've got a lot to learn or you do (or more likely both, isn't that the whole point of this forum?). Want to compare track records?

[nath]

OK, I read your post. It sounds like a good, solid strategy-- for cash games with fairly deep stacks.

As the stakes increase in tournament poker, you simply *must* take more chances. You don't have the luxury of waiting for premium hands. As I wrote in my last post, as your stack shrinks relative to the blinds, you must be willing to push increasingly thin edges. OP's post posited a scenario of 100/200/25 stakes and a 5700 chip stack. At a 10-handed table, it's costing him 550 to see a round-- that's an M just over 10. Under these circumstances, he cannot afford to pass a hand as good as a pair of tens. You say "play them strongly or not at all"; I say that circumstances dictate that this must be played strongly, if you're playing to win the tournament, and not just hang out as long as possible.
Earlier in the tournament you can play more conservatively, but now is the time to attack.

[ QUOTE ]
If you disagree with everything I wrote, then either I've got a lot to learn or you do (or more likely both, isn't that the whole point of this forum?). Want to compare track records?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I've been having a good run at the MTTs lately but I won't deny I have lots to learn. (Especially about ring games, but I know my MTT play is going to need improvement whenever it's time to make the next step up, too.)

[fnurt]

Yeah, I definitely agree with nath here. Geez, if there are strong, tricky players to my left, I'm out of position against them on EVERY hand. Do I have to wait for AA/KK before I can play a hand of poker against them?