J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair

J. Stew · #1 09-20-2005, 02:44 PM

One orbit in and the table is somewhat loose and somewhat passive. Villain here was unremarkable in nine hands.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Anybody raise here?

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

We're raising here to: (I'm asking here)

1. knock out gutshots and charge flush draws
2. try to fold small pp's or do we want them calling?
3. get money in the pot with possibly the best hand.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Everyone folded to a flop raise and Mp3 just called. Mp3 checks the turn and I put him on a weak Ace, a flush draw, a gutshot, a better ten than mine like Q10, K10, or a small pocket pair.

I think I'm behind about half of the hands I put him on and ahead of about half. He checked to me so I'm leaning towards me being ahead but I am still 50-50 cause a passive player would probably check a weak ace and certainly a Q10/K10 to a flop-raise. I bet he calls.

River: (7 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Brick on the river and he checks to me. He missed his flush and straight draws if he was on them. If he had a weak Ace he's calling me down and in my experience so far most .5/1 Partiers will call down a better ten than mine in this spot.

Is this an example of 'only a better hand will call here'?

If my read on villain was 'loose, calling-station' would you value bet the river, or should I have anyways?

Final Pot: 7 BB

Vote4Pedro · #2 09-20-2005, 02:58 PM

Right idea, just wrong time to use it. I dont think the pots big enough to make this play worth while. Unless the bettor is a total douche, I'm folding the flop due to the vulnerability of your hand, and the cleanliness of your outs.

J. Stew · #3 09-20-2005, 03:27 PM

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Right idea, just wrong time to use it. I dont think the pots big enough to make this play worth while. Unless the bettor is a total douche, I'm folding the flop due to the vulnerability of your hand, and the cleanliness of your outs.

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So even if we do have the best hand here, which is a possibility since everybody checked but a late position player, our edge is too small in a small pot to make this a +ev play long term?

Roadstar · #4 09-20-2005, 04:06 PM

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Right idea, just wrong time to use it. I dont think the pots big enough to make this play worth while. Unless the bettor is a total douche, I'm folding the flop due to the vulnerability of your hand, and the cleanliness of your outs.

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I think I disagree, I think the flop raise (if you choose to employ it) is to *clean up* your outs AND potentially get a free card. It is the wrong time to use it if the table is full of calling stations where this play will not work.

The OP's position is the best (hes on the button).

Heres my take (from the start):

Raise preflop, you have good position and a hand that plays multiway very well.

On the flop, its either raise or fold. Lacking reads (and with ppl usually playing Ax at this level), villain likely has an ace. Your raise is to 1) clear the field and 2) hopefully get a free card on the turn (get a card cheaper). You do this if you think the rest of the field aren't donks who'd call 2 cold (and if villain is not overly aggressive to 3 bet you back).

Assuming you raised

Turn: Check behind! I don't think you're ahead, take that free card.

River: Check behind if checked to. If bet to, I might fold unless villain is prone to bluffing in this situation.
(this changes if you improved to 2 pair or trips obviously)

Thoughts?

J. Stew · #5 09-20-2005, 04:30 PM

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Right idea, just wrong time to use it. I dont think the pots big enough to make this play worth while. Unless the bettor is a total douche, I'm folding the flop due to the vulnerability of your hand, and the cleanliness of your outs.

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I think I disagree, I think the flop raise (if you choose to employ it) is to *clean up* your outs AND potentially get a free card. It is the wrong time to use it if the table is full of calling stations where this play will not work.

The OP's position is the best (hes on the button).

Heres my take (from the start):

Raise preflop, you have good position and a hand that plays multiway very well.

On the flop, its either raise or fold. Lacking reads (and with ppl usually playing Ax at this level), villain likely has an ace. Your raise is to 1) clear the field and 2) hopefully get a free card on the turn (get a card cheaper). You do this if you think the rest of the field aren't donks who'd call 2 cold (and if villain is not overly aggressive to 3 bet you back).

Assuming you raised

Turn: Check behind! I don't think you're ahead, take that free card.

River: Check behind if checked to. If bet to, I might fold unless villain is prone to bluffing in this situation.
(this changes if you improved to 2 pair or trips obviously)

Thoughts?

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I think the problem with taking the free card on the turn is that it looks like I'm betting a flush draw on the flop and if villain is at all aware of that he may bet the river with a small pair or a bluff which puts us in a tough spot. On the flip side, we may be betting his weak Ace for him if we bet the turn. I'm torn here.

I was new to the table so I didn't have a read which would be nice here and I usually err on the aggressive side against an unknown who's playing passively, though this may have not been the best spot to be aggressive.

Roadstar · #6 09-20-2005, 04:43 PM

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I think the problem with taking the free card on the turn is that it looks like I'm betting a flush draw on the flop and if villain is at all aware of that he may bet the river with a small pair or a bluff which puts us in a tough spot. On the flip side, we may be betting his weak Ace for him if we bet the turn. I'm torn here.

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I think you're incorrectly assuming the villain is incorrectly reading your hand (read that again carefully).

But that I mean - you do NOT raise on a flush draw if you actually had one in this case. Thats a terrible play. I absolutely would just call if villain bet on the flop if you had a flush draw because you have 35% chance of making it by the river and want more ppl to come along to fund your draw, not be forcing ppl to face 2 cold. You want 3 or more customers to make your draw profitable since you have 35% pot equity.

J. Stew · #7 09-20-2005, 05:00 PM

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I think the problem with taking the free card on the turn is that it looks like I'm betting a flush draw on the flop and if villain is at all aware of that he may bet the river with a small pair or a bluff which puts us in a tough spot. On the flip side, we may be betting his weak Ace for him if we bet the turn. I'm torn here.

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I think you're incorrectly assuming the villain is incorrectly reading your hand (read that again carefully).

But that I mean - you do NOT raise on a flush draw if you actually had one in this case. Thats a terrible play. I absolutely would just call if villain bet on the flop if you had a flush draw because you have 35% chance of making it by the river and want more ppl to come along to fund your draw, not be forcing ppl to face 2 cold. You want 3 or more customers to make your draw profitable since you have 35% pot equity.

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Good point, so our strategy on the flop is to raise and take the free card on the turn, and . . .

1a. call a bet on the river
2a. fold to a bet on the river

1b. bet to his check
2b. check to his check

Highn · #8 09-20-2005, 06:26 PM

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I think the problem with taking the free card on the turn is that it looks like I'm betting a flush draw on the flop and if villain is at all aware of that he may bet the river with a small pair or a bluff which puts us in a tough spot. On the flip side, we may be betting his weak Ace for him if we bet the turn. I'm torn here.

I was new to the table so I didn't have a read which would be nice here and I usually err on the aggressive side against an unknown who's playing passively, though this may have not been the best spot to be aggressive.

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I think your logic is flawed here, if we take the free card on the turn and he bets the river because of that, or we assume he might x% of the time, we can call him if the pot's big enough. Not that it applies to this pot 'cus its way too small. But in general him trying to bluff you out a pot after taking a free card is not allways a negative thing.

If he has you beat and you bet the turn and check behind him on the river it costs you 1 bb to see the river. If you check behind on the turn it costs you nothing to see the river and 1 bb to showdown, which also might've induced a bluff every now and then.

Sorry if that's not making sense been writing a casereport all day, I'm knackered.

Vote4Pedro · #9 09-20-2005, 05:06 PM

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I think I disagree, I think the flop raise (if you choose to employ it) is to *clean up* your outs AND potentially get a free card.

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What outs are you cleaning? and why on earth would you take a free card? If you think youre behind, you should be folding this on the flop considering the size of this pathetic pot.

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On the flop, its either raise or fold.

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I'm with you on that one, calling is no good

Roadstar · #10 09-20-2005, 05:24 PM

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What outs are you cleaning? and why on earth would you take a free card? If you think youre behind, you should be folding this on the flop considering the size of this pathetic pot.

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Outs - Well you might get an early position person to dump his KQ, KT, QT or even JT to fold to a raise. You've brought up a good point about the size of the pot. You can argue that pots too small to pull this move (or maybe I have 6 max syndrome [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

BUT by the time villain bets there are 7 SB. If you assume the free card play works, essentially the pot after the flop will be 10SB or 5BB. You likely have 5 outs or 20% of making it by the river and you're getting a crack at winning 5BB (or maybe more if you improve and villain bets, and I assign no outs to backdoor straight draw) for 1BB (cost of your play). So its NOT that bad buddy! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]