HU Turn Play

MarkD · #1 09-16-2005, 08:39 PM

This hand is reminiscient of a post made within the last couple of weeks about 3-betting the turn.

In this hand villian is: 58/13/1.17 over 141 hands with a CR% = 4.2. I include CR% because this guy had CR'd me a bunch of times in the short session we had played. I doubt CR% converges anywhere near as fast as this, but he had done it lots against me. I think he had done it twice on the flop and once on the turn and the one time he did it on the flop I had enough to call down and I won with my marginal hand against his overcard CR semi-bluff. I think he is more agressive than his AF indicates.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 3 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets...

tizim · #2 09-16-2005, 10:14 PM

How is this any better than just calling down?

MarkD · #3 09-17-2005, 01:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How is this any better than just calling down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that it was.

I don't think I played this hand well. I don't usually post hands that I think I played well. But no one else seemed to question this play so... seems weird to me.

ArturiusX · #4 09-17-2005, 01:38 AM

I kind of like it, in terms of table image. Fighting back will stop him from making these kinds of bluffs. He'll only cap if he has the flush, in which case you have outs against. If he doesn't cap, he'll check the river, allowing you to check through UI. If you improve, he'll probably call another bet. You make the same amount if 4 to a flush hits, possibly more. Also, a slight amount of folding equity.

MarkD · #5 09-17-2005, 09:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of like it, in terms of table image. Fighting back will stop him from making these kinds of bluffs. He'll only cap if he has the flush, in which case you have outs against. If he doesn't cap, he'll check the river, allowing you to check through UI. If you improve, he'll probably call another bet. You make the same amount if 4 to a flush hits, possibly more. Also, a slight amount of folding equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not just check through on the turn though? Is betting really a better option?

MarkD · #6 09-19-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is reminiscient of a post made within the last couple of weeks about 3-betting the turn.

In this hand villian is: 58/13/1.17 over 141 hands with a CR% = 4.2. I include CR% because this guy had CR'd me a bunch of times in the short session we had played. I doubt CR% converges anywhere near as fast as this, but he had done it lots against me. I think he had done it twice on the flop and once on the turn and the one time he did it on the flop I had enough to call down and I won with my marginal hand against his overcard CR semi-bluff. I think he is more agressive than his AF indicates.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 3 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets...

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this hand wasn't very interesting but I always like to finalize my posts with the results and my thoughts, so I can double check them.

My opponent capped me on teh turn. The river blanked and it went check, check and he had 86o and MYWNG.

When I am self-analysing hands these days I have been thinking like Barry Greenstein advocates in his book. Figure out what the perfect play is and figure out what the correct play is. (For those that don't know, the perfect play is the play that you should make if you know what your opponents hand is and the correct play is the play you should make in the moment of the decision without the perfect information). In this hand the perfect play on the turn is to obviously check through. I also believe strongly that the correct play was to check through.

Checking through is so +EV, and the possibly of a CR, even a bluff CR, is high in this hand so I think it was painfully obvious what the correct play should have been. Instead of checking through I put in 4 bets on the turn as a 2:1 dog and cost myself a lot of bets. I play bad.

MarkD · #7 09-19-2005, 08:51 PM

Hmm... no thoughts on this at all?

Catt · #8 09-19-2005, 08:56 PM

I think checking the turn is the best play against a guy like this, and really, against a lot of guys on this board with that hand after the prior action.

MarkD · #9 09-19-2005, 08:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think checking the turn is the best play against a guy like this, and really, against a lot of guys on this board with that hand after the prior action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. This play was partially brought to you by tilt. I bet, almost knowing he was going to check raise, and I planned on three betting him to say, "F*** you!"

Boy, did that ever back fire.

Catt · #10 09-19-2005, 09:01 PM

Just do it the next time when you actually have the flush! That'll teach him.