Kudos to Ribbo

[got0uts]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ribmeister/


...You have to understand though that your PLO/8 tables have been utterly
watered down by for some reason starting NLO/8 tables.
In the forums I subscibe to, a lot of players just wont play NLO8 period.
It's a terrible game full of Americans who get two aces and refuse to see a
flop, instead shoving $100 into a $5 pot and somehow expecting a call.
I believe the opening of NLO/8 was counterproductive to your sites
popularity. As you know most of the action for PLO8 is at party poker, they
get a lot of games going including a lot of high limit games.
What makes your high limit games die is people playing NLO8. There has to be
"stepping stones" for new players without the bankroll to be able to build
up a bankroll to be able to play in these games. Because serious players
will not play NLO8 they do not get the opportunities they need to sit down
and play PLO8 regularily. I believe NLO8 simply puts new players off playing
big bet Omaha/8 because they will happily put all their chips in on a flop
where they have the nut straight, then wonder why they lost everything to
the guy with the freeroll flush draw and/or low draw.
The reason PLO8 is not popular with your site is twofold. One, you don't
promote it like you should. Two, you make the tables nine handed. This is
just terrible. I have taken many screenshots of tables where three people
will be sat out for one reason or another. The table goes six handed, then
everyone else refuses to play because they abhor shorthanded PLO/8. The
table dies, everyone leaves. I see it time and time again. You need to make
the games 10 handed to get the players back at the tables, else all the
action will firmly stay at Party Poker. Having played on Pokerstars since
the beta, and having almost exclusively played PLO8 for a living for the
last 3+ years I've spoken to an awful lot of players in those games. 9
handed games and NLO8 tables are the reason you are not running a PLO8
event. There is no other reason for the action being at Party Poker for
these games, since Pokerstars has much better software and a more generous
and easily obtained deposit bonus. (Although you could claim that because
you don't offer affiliate rakeback deals a lot of the pro's stick to Party,
but that's a different matter)

Edited
Another reason I am cpoying Ribbo's journal here is because I hope there will be enough responses here so that PS will give a shit about their dying PLO8 games, like Lee Jones once responded personally about PS's issue at another forum...

[Mendacious]

I sent an e-mail to PS as well echoing Ribbo's points. I think more should.

[got0uts]

Will do too.

I still don't understand why the hell PS is only offering 9-handed tables for PL & NL games. They can't handle the bets? (sw)

[Ribbo]

10 games of 9 handed, as opposed to 9 games of 10 handed means $3 a hand more rake. It's pretty obvious why they want them 9 handed. It's just ironic that that very reason has caused them to lose atleast 50 regular players from their PLO8 games. That's considerably more than going ten handed.

[TGoldman]

I agree about the 9-handed NL and PL tables. I don't see why limit games should be 10-handed but big bet games can only have 9 seats? As for PokerStar's No-Limit O8 games, well I agree it's a dumb betting structure for the game. Most good players realize that. However some people obviously enjoy playing NL. So let people play the game however they want to play it. It isn't PokerStar's job to tell people what games they should or should not play. On that issue, I think Ribbo's just sour that it's mainly fish that populate the NLO/8 tables, and he wants those players at his PLO/8 tables.

[Mendacious]

I disagree. You want games where players have an incentive to continue to play..and improve, be challenged and get a fair shake. Having people play a game where a vast number are bound to get frustrated and leave, in favor of a much richer game is not better for anyone. NL08 is like playing with wild cards, follow the queen... Anaconda, Baseball, etc. Sure people like these games, but they aren't good poker and are not optimal for developing players and retaining them.

[got0uts]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. You want games where players have an incentive to continue to play..and improve, be challenged and get a fair shake. Having people play a game where a vast number are bound to get frustrated and leave, in favor of a much richer game is not better for anyone. NL08 is like playing with wild cards, follow the queen... Anaconda, Baseball, etc. Sure people like these games, but they aren't good poker and are not optimal for developing players and retaining them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there's a choice, good players will prefer to have plhe instead of nlhe. But it's nlhe that gets poker going. But I do agree that nlo8 should only be played at up to certain level,say $50 max buy-in (with $.25/$.50 blinds). Many players like to have FUN, they like to have some beers and poker after work, so why bothers with all the thinking and analyzing and brain-hurtting things in poker? So low-limit NLO8 should get them going and have fun. When they've enough funs and see pl tables with higher stakes, they will like to give it a shot. Then they move back to nlo8, and repeat.

[TGoldman]

It isn't the poker site's responsibility to force people to learn to appreciate a particular type of game. People play poker for all sorts of different reasons. Recreational players do it for fun, and if enough of them wanted to play a game like Baseball, then I think the poker room should spread that game. Don't play NLO/8 if you don't like the game, but give people the choice. This argument is mostly over sour grapes by professional and semi-professional players who don't want to see fish playing a game that reduces the pro's edge. But that's their problem. It isn't the poker site's responsibility to ensure action for one particular game over another.

[Mendacious]

I wasn't making a case for the site's responsibility at all. I was making a case for what is best for the site over the long term. My point was that better games develop a player base that sticks around longer. All things being equal a better game attracts more players over the long haul than the short haul. IMHO PLO8 is such a game and NLO8 is not. So when a site offers a game with less development potential that competes for players with a game that has more development potential it may be giving the players what they want, but it is worse for business over the long haul. My evidence of this (besides my undertanding of the two games themselves) is that Stars Omaha base is declining (they offer NL tables) and Party's is increasing, (they offer only PL) the same holds true for UB. I think Stars NL08 is not growing any players for them.

[Notorious G.O.B.]

What's wrong with wild card games?