Is this the "Noble Cause"...?

[MtSmalls]

that we have been fighting for? Is this Democracy being spread around the world? The text for the proposed Iraqi Constitution, that the pResident is so proud of, is here.

Some important bits:

After Article 1 states that Iraq is an independent sovereign nation, Article 2 is a doozy:

1st -- Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation:

(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.

(c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.

Ok, so all of the laws HAVE to be both democratic and in line with Sharia law.

Go down a little further to Article 17:
Each person has the right to personal privacy as long as it does not violate the rights of others or general morality."

And in like fashion Article 36:
The state guarantees, as long as it does not violate public order and morality:
1st -- the freedom of expressing opinion by all means.
2nd -- the freedom of press, publishing, media and distribution.
3rd -- freedom of assembly and peaceful protest will be organized by law

So basic freedom of speech and expression, and a right to privacy, as long as you aren't violating "general morality".

Guess who is going to define that last term? I'm guessing it will be ok to write an editorial in the local paper critizing the government, but very likely NOT ok to write a similar one to say, give women the right to drive or wear western clothing. And you have the right to privacy as long you aren't watching a bootleg copy of "Dukes of Hazzard" or any other western movie showing half naked women. And you'd best get rid of any of that booze in your house.

In the end, banning offenses due to "morality", is a democracy, its a THEOCRACY run by the thought police.

[/sarcasm on] I'm sure glad 2000 Americans could die for this. [/sarcasm off]

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Article 17:
Each person has the right to personal privacy as long as it does not violate the rights of others or general morality.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad to see the Iraqis have chosen to write a stronger protection of privacy than exists in the US Constitution.

Why should we impose our decision to allow things like pornography on other nations? Why are you supporting pirated version of copyrighted material?

[Autocratic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Article 17:
Each person has the right to personal privacy as long as it does not violate the rights of others or general morality.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad to see the Iraqis have chosen to write a stronger protection of privacy than exists in the US Constitution.

Why should we impose our decision to allow things like pornography on other nations? Why are you supporting pirated version of copyrighted material?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that's really a strong privacy clause? Loopholes will arise, trust me.

The real issue here is that if the Sunnis get angry enough about thee imposing federalism, they could easily take things into their own hands - violently. I really view it as a dangerous situation, and one that the U.S. can't really do much about as of now.

[MtSmalls]

I was using some of the most obvious examples that I could think of. I don't support the piracy of intellectual property.

Let me rephrase: Can it really be considered a democracy, if the Mullahs can declare anything 'immoral', and thus illegal? Any form of television could be declared 'outside public morality', by a small group of clerics. Or women's right to vote, be educated, drive, or show their face in public. Or the right of an muslim man to marry a christian woman (or jewish). That could easily be declared immoral and the offenders jailed or worse. Its not a democracy if a few in power can invade the rights of the many, especially without recall.

To put it another way, would you be comfortable under this constitution with Pat Robertson and James Dobson at the controls??

[bobman0330]

You're certainly correct that this constitution could be used to abridge freedoms. So could the US constitution. There is nothing written about privacy, and it was assumed for almost 200 years that government could legislate morality without regard to privacy. The restrictions on freedom of speech are not unreasonable.

On the other hand, if you look at the old Soviet or Chinese constitutions, I'm sure you'll find very robust protections of basic rights... The point is that the only thing that can protect the freedoms of Iraqis is a national commitment to liberty. Without that commitment, a constitution is just words on paper. With it, any reasonable constitution will do the job, and it's presumptuous of us to try to dictate their choices about marginal issues like pornography, etc.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, if you look at the old Soviet or Chinese constitutions, I'm sure you'll find very robust protections of basic rights... The point is that the only thing that can protect the freedoms of Iraqis is a national commitment to liberty. Without that commitment, a constitution is just words on paper.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the Iraqis committment to words on paper shouldn't be underestimated.

BTW-- I recall the constitution of USSR was actually an amplified version of the US.

[ QUOTE ]


BTW-- I recall the constitution of USSR was actually an amplified version of the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which just goes to show that making sweeping assumptions based on the written words alone is wrong.

I feel this thread completely misses the point of our invasion/take-over/liberation... whatever you want to call it. The bottom line is this:

Now that Saddam and a majority of his regime are gone... the Iraqis can have these types of discussions without fear of being shot in the streets. How nice is it that Joe Blowajian can now post on 2+2 about his political thoughts without being hunted down like an animal.

Anyone arrogant enough to think a person... much less an entire country could draft a "perfect" and balanced system within 6 months is suffering from a case of Michael Moorism... other-wise known as delusions of self grandjor

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I recall the constitution of USSR was actually an amplified version of the US.

[/ QUOTE ]
What on Lenin's Tomb are you talking about ??

[jokerthief]

This makes me ashamed that I once supported this war.