I am an awful player, plz berate me

silkyslim · #1 08-29-2005, 01:52 PM

Pf raiser is a TAG, gaybetter on turn is a rock. All streets need advice. This may be standard but i didnt feel right about it.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

soweak. · #2 08-29-2005, 01:58 PM

Consider 3-betting pre-flop. Once it's checked to you it's alright to bet on the flop as well. MP2 can have a wider range of hands he's opening with, including pairs lower than your own.

hobbsmann · #3 08-29-2005, 01:58 PM

I 3-bet preflop. Otherwise I don't you see you being ahead, or your draw being good enough, the way the hand played out and thus the turn fold is fine.

callmedonnie · #4 08-29-2005, 02:00 PM

i don't think it is all that bad. UTG could very possibly have qj or j10 or 55. If you bet in position on flop you may be able to take this one down, unless of course he has the set. Anyway, I don't think this is that bad, nor do I think that playing these situations this way will terribly effect your winnings.

sy_or_bust · #5 08-29-2005, 02:14 PM

If you have rocks limping in front of you, you should especially want to 3-bet preflop.

W. Deranged · #6 08-29-2005, 02:33 PM

Let's try three-bet pre-flop here.

Your hand is good and it would rule if you can get the limpers to dump there hands and provide some dead money. You're in position too so that's nice.

PTjvs · #7 08-29-2005, 02:38 PM

You can 3bet if you want, but I wouldnt advise it.

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand is good and it would rule if you can get the limpers to dump there hands and provide some dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the a huge pipe dream. Realistically at 2/4, you can expect every limper to cold call 2 coming back. Your hand may have a VERY slight equity edge preflop, and if you are raising this is why. You certainly arent raising in hopes that anyone will fold preflop. As is, the flop was very ugly, and SOMEONE hit a piece of it. If you bet the flop, you are simply hoping for free turn + river to spike your set; you are almost never ahead on this flop.

nh

jvs

W. Deranged · #8 08-29-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can 3bet if you want, but I wouldnt advise it.

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand is good and it would rule if you can get the limpers to dump there hands and provide some dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the a huge pipe dream. Realistically at 2/4, you can expect every limper to cold call 2 coming back. Your hand may have a VERY slight equity edge preflop, and if you are raising this is why. You certainly arent raising in hopes that anyone will fold preflop. As is, the flop was very ugly, and SOMEONE hit a piece of it. If you bet the flop, you are simply hoping for free turn + river to spike your set; you are almost never ahead on this flop.

nh

jvs

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right that we won't encourage all that many folds, but if that is the case it is often because our opponents are way to loose and will be calling with inferior hands.

A three-bet has a ton of good things about it, and it's not entirely necessary to know which one upon which we are capitalizing at the time. If we raise and get cold-calls from weak hands, cool. Our raise if for value. If we encourage some folds, we increase our overlay by creating dead money. Even if we get two cold-calls from hands that merit being in the hand, we are never in that bad shape in a four-way field even if we're up against overpairs. The only really horrible situation is when we manage to isolate against a bigger pair, but we are in position, have set outs, and should be able to make good enough decisions post-flop that we won't get killed.

So, basically, a three-bet here can never be that bad and can often be quite good. So let's try it.

Hamlet · #9 08-29-2005, 03:14 PM

I would disagree with this statement. You are almost always a money dog 4-ways against an overpair for 3+ bets. About the only way it is decent is if you're opponents share alot of cards. Generally you have less than 20% equity in a pot that you likely payed 4 bets pre-flop on (since the overpair will generally cap). You have to make up alot of ground post-flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if we get two cold-calls from hands that merit being in the hand, we are never in that bad shape in a four-way field even if we're up against overpairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

SeaEagle · #10 08-29-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's try three-bet pre-flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you accomplishing with a 3-bet? At best you have a very small equity edge. And you're likely decreasing it by reraising, since you won't be able to protect your hand post-flop.

Let's look at the most likely scenarios:
1) You get a bad flop with 2 or more overcards. You're toast with 3 opponents and cost yourself and extra bet the vast majority of the time.

2) You get a good flop with 1 or less overcards. It sure would be nice to be able to raise the PF raiser and face the field with 2 bets in this situation. Instead, you'll be unable to protect your hand and will have to dodge an overcard on the turn as well. I cannot believe the equity you gained with the PF bet can be anywhere near the value of being able to buy overcard outs in a big pot.

3) You flop a set. Even in this case, your PF reraise has already defined your hand as very strong so you lose some of the deceptive value of making a set. Opponents will be looking for a reason to fold against you and your implied odds will be less as a result.

Maybe at a higher level you might get a limper or two to fold, but at 2/4 all you're doing is investing an extra bet to tie overcards to the pot.