Simple Thought Experiment for SSNL'ers

[fimbulwinter]

i had a big day yesterday and was looking to share the wealth with SSNL via a 25 game. since the table broke, i was forced to play with the unwashed masses.

one thing i started doing was imposing restrictions on myself. for about 30 mins i decided that my standard pfr was 5. then i wasn't allowed to bet or raise but only checkraise. after that i was allowed to play normally until the flop where i had to fold or push all-in.

now, keep in mind my goal was not to throw a party. i was trying very hard to win. in fact, i was able to win at least in the short term due to the fact that these players refused to adjust their games. they thought they were playing optimally and couldn't believe some fish was winning.

This got me thinking. one of the major things that changes in a player as he moves up is the ability to adjust one's game to the game conditions. try thining about how you would adjust your game to each of the following scenarios in a shorthanded (4 players in general) situation.

remember, other than the restrictions, this is a solid player trying very hard to win. he will play as optimally as he can against you.

1. standard PFR must be 20xBB
2. inability to bet hands, must checkraise only (calling PF ok)
3. inability to raise preflop
4. all-in or fold on flop
5. can never call, must raise or fold


If you think about these for a while, i think you'll come up with some interesting results as to how big of leaks these are and what proper countermeasures are. if you're just starting out and don't feel qualified to give a response, ty listing the restrictions in order of how much you think they would hurt an otherwise winning player's game.

fim

1. inability to raise preflop
2. inability to bet hands, must checkraise only (calling PF ok)
3. all-in or fold on flop
4. standard PFR must be 20xBB
5. can never call, must raise or fold

[LethalRose]

I'll be your huckleberry

First off, why am I playing 4 handed in a Cash NL game?
beside that fact..


Assuming 4 handed Cash NL game with ~100BB average stack size.

first off, this is 4 handed, its war. stack or be stacked.

so this is how i would adjust to each circumstance.

#1 - wow, this would be heaven. If the standard raise is 20xBB I'am playing ultra tight when calling and looking to catch AA, KK, QQ to push pf with. This is assuming my opponents are raising 20xBB enough to make me a huge favorite against their random opening hand. How often people are raising 20xBB is important. I would be raising maybe once every 2 orbits with the button.

2 - if I can only checkraise to build the pot I'am playing OOP everytime. I'am checkraising with hands I would usually lead with, whether its a draw or made hand. I think this would be a difficult way to play.

3 - Playing pretty much standard except for taking into account how many people see the flop and what my hand is. I think the key here is to have the ability to fold AA and KK unimproved to a lot of aggression. Im hoping to hit a set or huge hand with this structure, its impossible to make your opponent make a mistake pf by calling a large bet with a mediocore/drawing hand.(including AK)

4 - I'am raising a lot PF with my strong hands and folding all others. This is somewhat similiar to how I play AA or KK. I tend to raise a lot and make the pot so large on the flop its almost always correct to call. You will lose to sets here occasionally but as long as you charge them enough to try to hit their set you will make money.

5 - Same game im simply raising when i have a draw and folding to a reraise. This is a mode I play sometimes. you cant call with your draws and bet your made hands. This pattern will get picked up on quickly by a thinking player. Raising the flop with say a flush draw will get your made hands paid off on the same flop. People will think you're drawing. I also may throw in an overbet here and there with the nuts or air to throw off my opponents.


Also, I've been searching the forums and talking to posters trying to find out what Basal level poker is, it seems nobody has defined it yet you mention it in one of your recent posts. care to elaborate on it?

[fimbulwinter]

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Also, I've been searching the forums and talking to posters trying to find out what Basal level poker is, it seems nobody has defined it yet you mention it in one of your recent posts. care to elaborate on it?

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i don't think i've ever said "basal level poker". do you have a link?

fim

[xorbie]

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1. standard PFR must be 20xBB

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I think this isn't so bad. I would raise slightly less hands, and would also mix my limping standards alot. I would say this would hurt my game, but could certainly be overcome, and is easily the least bad of the five.

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2. inability to bet hands, must checkraise only (calling PF ok)

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This one seriously hurts. On the flop, it's just horrible multiway because you end up not being able to bet one pair hands on drawish flops against a wide field, and check raising with just one pair is really, really bad. On the river and turn, you lose so much value it isn't even funny. This is probably 2nd or 3rd as well.

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3. inability to raise preflop

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You could still be a winning player like this, I think. Not great, obviously, but not terrible. I'll put this 4th.

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4. all-in or fold on flop

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This is just terrible. To start with, you can't really play a lot of hands that otherwise would make money (I'm thinking AJo, KQo and the like), and you can't get full value out of any of the hands you are now basically restricted to (pairs). This is the worst, I would say, and also one of the most exploitable (because it's so easy to trap and bluff against).

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5. can never call, must raise or fold

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Also either 2nd or 3rd worst. Really bad against agressive players, but fairly decent again passive players. Big downside is total inability to play draws OOP. This one would also suck a lot in raised/big pots though, and you might end up having to fold QQ/JJ preflop because you simply can't play postflop in raised pots with those hands (against a typical TT-AA hand range). Also if you include preflop in this, it would catapult it to the worst.

[wtfsvi]

1. standard PFR must be 20xBB
If stack sizes are 100bb, I think counterstrategy is pretty much push or fold preflop. Playing postflop poker with 20% of your stack in the middle preflop is a dubious mission. Of course, if you're raising a lot I must push a (relative) lot.

2. inability to bet hands, must checkraise only (calling PF ok)
Calling pf ok? Does this mean calling postflop is not ok? If not, I don't even know what to say about this one.

3. inability to raise preflop
I won't have to change my postflop strategy too much here I think. Except for remembering that you might very well have top set on a J-high board even though you limped in the CO. Preflop I should be less inclined to raise your EP limps with garbage, and more inclined to limp behind with garbage as there might be implied odds.

4. all-in or fold on flop
I might undervaluate how bad this is, but I think you could still beat some games playing like this. You would have to be active with preflop raises. I would bluff you a lot on the flop as counterstrategy.

5. can never call, must raise or fold
This is not too far from how you will normally play against passive oponents. Against aggressives it puts you at a disadvantage though. If it includes preflop, you might miss some very profitable situations (especially with small pocket pairs).

Assuming 100BB stacks I think my list of which handicap puts you at the greatest disadvantage will look like this:

1. Inability to bet hands. This would really suck. If you also can't call, but only check-raise (I'm not sure how to understand the OP.) there is not doubt this is worst. If you're allowed to call, it's a close race between all the first three.
2. Can never call, must raise or fold. If this includes preflop, it is really horrible. Worse than the first.
3. All-in or fold on the flop.
4. Can't raise preflop.
5. 20xBB preflop raise.

[DoomSlice]

I would have to say that the only crippling one is the all in or fold (#4), except that mixing #1 and #4 might actually work for a while until people adjust.

#5 might actually be closer to PROPER strategy than most people realize.

#2 Is fine, you'll probably want to play a lot more suited and/or connected hands, because eventually people will start checking everything through for fear of a checkraise. Obviously play the type of hands that draws to the nuts.

The inability to raise preflop (#3) will limit the size of the pots you win, and/or make it so you have less chance to win each pot due to more players in a hand.

[fimbulwinter]

there is one piece of logical deduction in the question i asked. anyone find it yet?

fim

[wtfsvi]

That not being allowed to raise preflop at all has to be worse than having to raise 20xBB if you do raise?

[xorbie]

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That not being allowed to raise preflop at all has to be worse than having to raise 20xBB if you do raise?

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Well that much should be obvious.