Possible Cheating (Long-ish) Please Help

[THWAP!]

Hi,

I need some help. This is the situation, and I will try to describe it as neutrally as possible.

I typically play online, and sometimes in casinos. I play for middle-ish stakes. I also play in a weekly home game that has a $20 buyin. Recently, my roommate, whom I've been helping teach play online, has started playing in the game. I figured it would be a good way to help him learn the game. My roommate is smart, plays out of my accounts, and has done well at poker at low stakes.

This weekly game is with friends who are not poker players. They are there to have fun, and they are, in general, relatively poor players.

Recently, my roommate has been doing very well at the game. He has racked up wins of around $100 a night in a .10/.20 game. He plays very tight, but generally gets action on hands (it's a very loose game). He often shows down things like sets.

Two sessions ago, he had a good session. He had KK versus AA and sucked out. He had QQ versus AA and sucked out. I was not involved in any of the hands.

Last session, he won about $100. I was not present for this game. He had AK on an AK9 board and sucked out versus 99. He had 33 versus KK on a K93 board, and made quads on the turn. He was apparently dealing this hand. Another hand, he had AQ versus QQ and AJ on a AAQ board and the money went in the middle.

Tonight, I played in the game again. This is my last time playing in the game (I'm moving to a new town). So, we were joking, and I'm like "maybe i'll run as well as you run tonight." and he says "oh, don't worry. then i'll win it off you when i cold deck you. like maybe set over set or a freeroll."

In this game, he was dealing half the hands. I got dealt a nut straight, three sets, including a set over set, and also a few boats. I'm doing really well. People are making Very Expensive second best hands against me. He is playing very tight, as usual.

Then this hand comes up. a bunch of limpers, i limp in ep with Jc Tc. he limps, too. The flop is Qh 9h 8s. Someone bets, i raise, he reraises all in, and i call. He shows Jh Th and turns a heart. Ok.

Shortly thereafter, this hand comes up. It's folded to him, and he raises. This generally means a premium hand, though I know that he is capable of playing me differently, since I am one of the more experienced players in the game--i can make laydowns or calls that other people won't make. I don't say this to be arrogant, but simply to establish that our states of mind when we're playing each other are clearly different than when we are involved in hands against anyone else in the game. One caller, and I call on the button with KsTs. We're pretty deep. The flop is Qs Js 9c. I check, he bets the full pot, and I call. There is about 10 in the pot. Turn is an offsuit 2. I bet 10, he moves in for 50 more. Obviously I call. He turns over As2s. I offer to run it twice, and he immediately declines. the river is a spade. what's notable is that my rooommate is very risk averse, and i think it's both unlikely that he will play the hand like this--later on, he said that he thought i was capable of folding a set here, and he had outs--and i thought it was especially strange that he wouldn't agree to run it twice.

after this, I notice someting about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.

the events above are relayed in the order they happened. i then said stuff to other people in the game, and they observed it. they have claimed to see the same thing, though they are not experienced gamblers. my judgment is somewhat biased since i feel like i would be on the wrong end of this. at the same time, the fact that this many colddeckings have happened, and this strange pattern of events leaves me wondering. I know weird colddeckings happen, but this kid seems to be dancing in between raindrops at all the weirdest times, and then i see that the shuffle appears to be weird.

So a few questions,

(1) What is the probability that you think he is cheating?

(2) If you think he is cheating, what evidence do you think is the most compelling? Alternatively, if you do not think he is cheating, what omission from the fact pattern gives you reason to believe that no cheating is occurring?

(3) If you believe he is cheating, how should I resolve the situation? Bear in mind that I am leaving town, but that other people's money was at stake here too. Also say what you would plan to do in the case of an anticipated denial. bear in mind that since this person is my roommate, and i have financial dealings with him (things like playing off my accounts online, settling up rent payments and stuff), that i would have to tread somewhat carefully.

I know this was long, but I wanted to be precise about the fact pattern and the sequence, and I also wanted to be even handed. your help is much appreciated.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
In this game, he was dealing half the hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh??????


[ QUOTE ]
...after this, I notice something about my roommate's shuffling. he always has the cards under the table. he is not shuffling, but putting some of the discards towards the back half of the deck. additionally, he is often holding the deck at a sideways angle in his lap, and then "playing" with the deck, but in such a way that he can see the cards of the deck. occasionally, i've seen him start switching cards in the deck during a hand. also, this is the way he shuffles during every hand he is dealing. when we play at my own house heads up, he shuffles apparently normally. i have not said anything to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be incredibly stupid to have not noticed his overt deck-setting the first time he dealt a hand. Actually, you all must be incredibly stupid to have continued playing with this person.

[THWAP!]

he dealt half the hands, and someone else dealt half the hands. and also, we're giant, lazy retards....

seriously. you're in a game with friends. FRIENDS. some of them hold their cards at 90-degree angles and other people can sometimes see them. that's the kind of game it is. you're not on the lookout for collusion artists. it's a .10/.20 game. let's just say that it's not the type of situation where you're on the lookout for cheating. and the dude is my roommate. and the stakes involved aren't significant (unless you generate a colddecking situation when the stacks actually get deep).

right. this was SO OBVIOUS, and I had absolutely no reasons not to raise a stink right there on the spot with a friend of mine in a friendly game. after all, i just liberally accuse people of cheating and take steps to prevent cheating in friendly games. anyone who doesn't is a huge effing moron. and if you do suspect cheating, it's really stupid to wait to ask other impartial people and then decide a course of action. i am so stupid.

keep in mind that this is the first time that i played with my roommate where he was dealing a substantial number of hands. i did end up noticing. i pointed it out to other people who definitely aren't experienced gamblers and wouldn't be counted on to notice themselves. but they agreed that they saw what i saw. now the trick is what inference to draw from it, and this is where i want unbiased people to help me.

i hope the sarcasm was evident here. sometimes you ask help on these forums, and you get this extremely condescending reply. it's sometimes more helpful if you just think about the state of mind in the OP's post, and why he's asking the questino. chesspain, i know you're a respected poster around here, so you can take my comment as a more general one (that no one will pay attention to anyway).

[capone0]

yes he cheats, ask for the money back. a friend of mine used to cheat, used to peak at the flop before he delt. would call large raises with terrible hands like 105o and 104 and flop 2 pair in miracle fashions. we wouldn't let him deal but we still let him play but he wasn't allowed in any of the bigger games on campus. he's actually a pretty good player, he wins decently online grinding, he just couldn't stop cheating for a while, it was kinda rediculous.

[Kosstic518]

I say you get your money back then take a aluminum bat to his knee caps.

[grandgnu]

I think the OP deserved this, since he obviously isn't bright enough to realize when someone does something THAT clearly right in front of him.

Who is worse, the person who takes advantage of another, or the person who allows himself to be taken advantage of?

To show I'm not without any shred of compassion, I had a problem in my home game where a friend I grew up with was "forgetting" to post his antes and also splashing the pot with less chips than whatever the bet might be (i.e. tossing in 50 chips on a 150 bet).

He was very entertaining and people enjoyed having him in the game, but many were getting upset that he kept "forgetting" his antes and would try to get away with it whenever he could. He just acted like it was a big friggin' joke, but with money involved there's no joking in my view.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
seriously. you're in a game with friends. FRIENDS. some of them hold their cards at 90-degree angles and other people can sometimes see them. that's the kind of game it is. you're not on the lookout for collusion artists. it's a .10/.20 game. let's just say that it's not the type of situation where you're on the lookout for cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]
BULLSHIT! Friends don't cheat friends, or what kind of friends are they?

And Mr "it's a .10/.20 game" he's making 500 BIG BETS A NIGHT!!!

"and the dude is my roommate. "
Hey, clueless, your roommate doesn't give as much of a [censored] about you as you THINK he does.

" and the stakes involved aren't significant (unless you generate a colddecking situation when the stacks actually get deep).'

If you're playing $0.10/0.20 and $100 isn't significant, then WHY are you playing [censored] dime poker??


"this was SO OBVIOUS, and I had absolutely no reasons not to raise a stink right there on the spot with a friend of mine in a friendly game."
More importantly, you have an implicit duty to protect the OTHER players from a goddamn cheat!


"and if you do suspect cheating, it's really stupid to wait to ask other impartial people and then decide a course of action. i am so stupid."

No, but you don't encourage the [censored] either. Shut it down the FIRST time! Change the dealing procedures RIGHT THE [censored] NOW!

"keep in mind that this is the first time that i played with my roommate where he was dealing a substantial number of hands. "
If it takes more than 2 times of his dealing ANY hands, you need to question your own standards.

" now the trick is what inference to draw from it, and this is where i want unbiased people to help me."

Learn proper shuffling and dealing procedures and make sure EVERYONE that you play with follows them. If they refuse, then sit out every hand they deal, watch them like a hawk while they are dealing and point out what they are doing wrong EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN TIME!

"i hope the sarcasm was evident here. sometimes you ask help on these forums, and you get this extremely condescending reply."

And SOMETIMES, when someone is doing something that 1) they should know better about and 2) we have discussed in great detail before on this forum, they DESERVE a GODDAMN condescending reply.

Man oh man, I have to go calm down....

[THWAP!]

chill out. sorry. i'm not in the home poker forum often. because i'm not playing home games often. Oops.

it's a friendly game, you don't expect cheating. and with the crap you see online, you (if you want not to go insane) eventually just say "that's poker" if you're on the wrong end of set over set.

when you see potential cheating, sometimes it's best to think about the best way to handle the situation, before you do something accusing or vaguely accusatory without enough proof. that's not unreasonable. or you want to observe and have other people observe, just in case you do catch someone redhanded. also reasonable, i think.

in short. chill the [censored] out.

[Lottery Larry]

Well, SOME of us taking cheating, and the general rules of poker, more seriously than others.

So, no, I WON'T chill the [censored] out. Don't make posts complaining about cheating, then get all lolly-gaggy ABOUT the cheating, and expect anything different than what you just got, at least from me.

PS- And you REALLY have no damn excuse, after THIS post:
"Background on me. I play somewhat for the money, but mostly for achievement. This year, I quit my job and started playing for a living. I've done well. I'm now comfortably beating 5/10 NL and 15/30 limit on various sites."

[gmunny]

The best way to reduce the possibility of cheating is to put proper controls (rotating deal, someone else shuffling, someone else cutting and keeping cards on table) in place before the cheating takes place. This eliminates most of the problems before the game even starts. I've played with most of my friends for over 10 years and play at stakes we can easily afford, they are like family, yet we still rotate the deal, cut the deck and shuffle other's deals.

Another way to look at it is why give people on the fence of morality an open door to cheat? It's like leaving your dog home alone with a nice juicy steak on the table. Blah..blah..blah..
G$