turn semibluff vs 2 players

surfdoc · #1 08-22-2005, 03:04 AM

UTG in this hand is a thinking player with 2+2 type stats. Something like 29/19/2.2. MP is fairly new to the table and seems to be pretty bad from initial impression.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero raises

Comments? standard?

wheelz · #2 08-22-2005, 03:09 AM

Why bet the flop?

I don't like the turn, but it's not that bad. You've got a ton of outs and 2 callers, so there's some value to be had, but UTG appears to like his hand and MP doesn't appear to be going anywhere either. You're never taking this pot down on the turn, and the pot will be large on the river so it'll be tough to take it there too.

NLSoldier · #3 08-22-2005, 03:14 AM

dont like the flop bet, turn is OK.

Alexthegreat · #4 08-22-2005, 04:25 AM

I would checkraise that flop and just lead out on the turn...If I was 3-bet I'd check call the turn....

Moozh · #5 08-22-2005, 04:39 AM

Usually I like to check-raise the flop in this situation. Check-raising two players gives more weight to your hand and will hopefully give you a better chance of folding UTG to a turn bet. Also, it allows you to trap both players for an extra bet which you don't mind with your draw.

The downside of check-raising here is that it might allow an observant UTG to get a better read on your hand.

I think the turn depends heavily on how you measure your chances of beating MP unimproved. Certainly his actions have done nothing to tell you that he has you beat. It's definitely possible that he's chasing a draw as well. If that were the case, folding UTG would be a coup and definitely worth the raise attempt. Even if UTG calls (or re-raises), you have plenty of outs to improve and decent folding equity on the river. Raising the turn here is something I rarely do, but I think that's a fault of my game.

And of course, I'm new to 6-max so what do I know? I figured I'd take a shot at helping out a friend and see how my opinions stacked up with the people who actually know what they're doing.

Chairman Wood · #6 08-22-2005, 04:42 AM

I would have c/r the flop. If UTG bets and MP calls and you can get MP trap to call bets one at the a time the c/r is for value. It also represents a really big hand and you may get UTG to fold on the turn. You also learn more information if he 3-bets afterwards which may still be a good thing for you value wise if MP still calls it. Just betting the flop gives UTG a chance to protect his hand or raise to free up overcards. Concerning your semi-bluff raise I think it is unwise as you unlikely to fold out two people no matter who they are and it is especially unlikely to fold out MP given his description. So the bluff part of it doesn't really work all that well and it isn't quite near being for value as your straight draw isn't all that strong and the ace outs may not be all that strong either.

surfdoc · #7 08-22-2005, 12:29 PM

I agree that the flop CR is the standard line here but I do mix in betting here also for 2 reasons. I will sometimes be picking up 3 outs when villian has TT-KK. I also think don't like how my hand gets defined when the action goes bet, raise and I have to coldcall 2.

As far as taking this one down on the turn, I know that will happen very rarely. This will usually be a multistreet bluff and the river follow through will be needed although when they both call the turn it may be best to give up unimproved on the river.

I do think the turn CR against multiple opponents (especially a thinking one) says "big hand" a lot more than a flop CR.

Wynton · #8 08-22-2005, 12:37 PM

I opt for the flop c/r.

But can anyone articulate why the concensus is to c/r here, but to lead the flop on this hand:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&fpart=1

My gut tells me there is a difference, but I'm having a hard time articulating a principled distinction.

surfdoc · #9 08-22-2005, 12:41 PM

In that hand there was no PFR so you are coming out of the blind with a huge draw and you have no idea if or where the flop bet will come from. This hand the PFR is to hero's immediate left and will autobet the flop 3 handed almost always.

Wynton · #10 08-22-2005, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In that hand there was no PFR so you are coming out of the blind with a huge draw and you have no idea if or where the flop bet will come from. This hand the PFR is to hero's immediate left and will autobet the flop 3 handed almost always.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the comments in that other thread suggest that leading the flop is better because they expect to be able to 3-bet.