Understanding high pairs in Stud/8

[Aaron W.]

I've been reviewing some hands recently, and I want to make sure I understand what I'm doing with high pairs. There seem to be two major principles that I'm trying to follow (from Zee's book):

1) Don't get trapped with a second-place high hand.
2) High hands like fewer opponents, preferring them to be going high (but with worse highs than mine, see #1).

Looking at principle #2, it seems that I should often be raising high pairs to shut out other players. But this seems to be true only when I've got hidden high strength, because when it's obvious I'm going high, lows will still play anyway.

Assuming I have that correct, here are a few scenarios that I would like feedback on, especially with respect to whether I'm thinking clearly about the approach to the hands. I guess the games should be considered as a generally passive low limit game, as all of my experience has come from playing low stakes ($10) online MTTs.

1) The bring-in comes in with a 3, and there are three or four folds (someone folded a 6) to you with (K6)K. The highest up card behind me is a Q. I want to just raise this hand. I've almost certainly got the best high hand, and even though it's obvious you're going high I would like to make sure nobody comes in with a speculative low hand like (82)6 cheaply (since they'll be closing the action, they're more inclined to call just the bring-in). I don't mind so much if such a low calls because there's a good chance he's not going to make his low and I'll scoop him (or perhaps he'll be forced to give up after drawing bad on 4th).

Having a 6 kicker instead of a 9 kicker seems fairly inconsequential as I need to draw 4 lows in a row to make the low (although it still does give me a tiny chance to escape with a low).

[As an aside, if the game is a little tight, would this be an appropriate steal raise with a weaker king hand, say with something like a three-flush (A8)K? Is (A9)K too weak to try this?]

2) The bring-in comes in with a 2, there's one fold and I'm up with (Q7)Q. There is an ace left to act after me, and everybody else has low cards. Even though it's reasonably likely that I have the best high hand, I should fold this with the ace left to act. There are too many bad things that can still happen if I enter this pot. I would hate to see the ace raise (because I won't know where I stand -- it could be aces, it could be jamming a low), and there are just too many people drawing to low hands that I will likely be chasing just half the pot (with the low hands having reasonable chances to outdraw me with something like a small two pair).

3) Same hand as #2, except the ace is replaced by a jack. I want to just call with this hand. Raising will almost certainly drive out a jack, even if he has a pair of jacks, and there are still lots of low cards out there that might want to play. So my raise will shut out the hands I want to keep in, and it will not shut out the players I want to shut out (because I'm clearly not going low).

4) Same hand as #3, except now I have (QQ)7. This time, I want to raise. The strength of the high hand is hidden, and it will cause players to misread my hand as a good low or something like (A7)7. If the jack has a pair, he's more likely to call with the second place high, which benefits me greatly. It will also make low 8s think twice about playing along because they may be drawing to a second place low.

Thanks for any feedback.

[stud7champ]

[ QUOTE ]
1) The bring-in comes in with a 3, and there are three or four folds (someone folded a 6) to you with (K6)K. The highest up card behind me is a Q. I want to just raise this hand. I've almost certainly got the best high hand, and even though it's obvious you're going high I would like to make sure nobody comes in with a speculative low hand like (82)6 cheaply (since they'll be closing the action, they're more inclined to call just the bring-in). I don't mind so much if such a low calls because there's a good chance he's not going to make his low and I'll scoop him (or perhaps he'll be forced to give up after drawing bad on 4th).

Having a 6 kicker instead of a 9 kicker seems fairly inconsequential as I need to draw 4 lows in a row to make the low (although it still does give me a tiny chance to escape with a low).


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes a raise is appropriate to limit the field.
On 4th street you have to be careful with A and any cards that pair the 3rd street card as well as any 4th street card that is close to any opponents 3rd card and of the same suite.
You always need to be careful with lows, they tie up one half of the pot 70% of the time after 4th street if they have 4 low cards on 4th street. Then they freeroll you on 6th and 7th street for the high.

[Wolffink]

This is one area where I think the book recommendations on playing "the best high hand" and typical situations in loose Stud Eight games necesitates a change (Although Zee does definitely mention playing any high hands that aren't monsters with caution).

If it's a loose Stud Eight game, pairs suck.

Your pair had better improve quick to survive with several lows against you.

This is probably obvious to most of the poster's here. But it's not obvious to many Stud Eight players evidently. Overplaying pairs I think is a major leak in many players ' games.

If there's other players going low, I fold the pair of Kings with a rag. However, I see other players often playing with a high up front card, which I like to see, especially when I make my low and start jamming!

Now if it's fold all around to me, and I have a pair of Kings, and am sure I can get it heads-up, a high pair is fine. And there are exceptions to playing a high pair. But playing a pair of 9s with several lows already in--sure seems like dead money to me.

[Bogglor]

My normal game is the 10/20 stud8 on Party and I do not often play one way big pair hands like split Js,Qs,Ks. I do not even feel like I'm giving up much EV by passing them by, either. Against several low cards or aces visible, they're quite easy to pitch.

There are several problems:

First is the propensity for many players to play any 3 low cards with an ace hidden. Anyone worth a salt should know not to play high split pairs with an ace showing in an opponent's board, but how about when those low draws in the pot with you catch an ace? You now have no idea where you are at in the hand. If you choose to even continue with the hand, you almost are reduced to a check-call strategy, hoping to make trips or two pair (which may not even be good enough).

Second, as many posters have alluded, it's hard to scoop a pot when you start with a big pair unless you manage to get it heads up. And even then, you may not improve your hand at all and are faced with a very difficult situation: A bare pair of kings against a board of 2768 left wondering what this guy's river bet means. Does he have just the low? Does he have a straight? Does he have two small pair? The apparent low hand gets to outplay the obvious high hand on just about every street. Those are the two key words: apparent and obvious. The low hand always has a good idea of where you're at in these situations. The high hand rarely has such a luxury.

Third, it's quite obvious to everyone when you improve high hands, but low hands will still draw against you if they have even a slight chance of scooping you. And as another poster stated, when they make their low, you're getting freerolled on 6th and 7th so often that it's hard to feel warm and fuzzy about it.

Just say no to these one way hands. I had a stretch where I decided to experiment with pushing my high hands harder when appropriate and ended up with a 2k dent in my bankroll to show for it.

[kyleb]

I agree with the above two comments. Unless you are sure you can isolate with Queens-Kings (Jacks are even scary), you do no harm in just throwing them away, or folding on fourth street if you don't improve immediately while others catch good.

Never play for half.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one area where I think the book recommendations on playing "the best high hand" and typical situations in loose Stud Eight games necesitates a change (Although Zee does definitely mention playing any high hands that aren't monsters with caution).

If it's a loose Stud Eight game, pairs suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive my lack of experience, but "loose" stud/8 means usually 4+ seeing 4th?

Does the advice change if there are only one or two low cards left to act after me? (It seems to me that at some point, I should play it like stud hi...)