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#1
08-20-2005, 05:35 PM
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Floor ruling, need input
Playing some NL last night at Winstar, OK. I am not involved in the hand,but just curious about the ruling. by the river players are heads up. Final board shows QQ88J. Bettor leads out for 50, second raises it all in for about 150 more. Original bettor looks mad and makes a crying call with an obvious 8. Now, the second player excitedly throws his cards with vigor from the 3 seat. one card gets airborn and goes off the table. It was a Jack. His queen is good for the higher house. The floor is called over and pronounces his hand dead b/c one card hit the floor. I obviously didnt say anything here, but if it was me i would think you only need one card, or even the board, to win. any thoughts?
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#2
08-20-2005, 06:15 PM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
You need both hole cards to have a valid hand.
One off the table makes it a dead hand. Period. Standard ruling. Hope Mr QJ learned his lesson.
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#3
08-20-2005, 06:17 PM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
The floor blew it, IMO. Regardless of the technical rules of whether both cards still have to be live, etc. it is clear from your story that the player had the Q and was entitled to the pot. The most important rule should be common sense. If the Q was the card that ended up off the table I think there might be some gray area, but once again, the rules are supposed to be to create a fair game. Fairness and the best interests of the game are not served by killing this hand.
That said, it's yet another example of someone getting screwed because they thought they'd be fancy and didn't hold onto their cards until they were awarded the pot. It's like walking in front of a speeding car even though you're in a crosswalk.
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#4
08-20-2005, 06:22 PM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
[ QUOTE ]
The floor blew it, IMO. Regardless of the technical rules of whether both cards still have to be live, etc. it is clear from your story that the player had the Q and was entitled to the pot. The most important rule should be common sense. If the Q was the card that ended up off the table I think there might be some gray area, but once again, the rules are supposed to be to create a fair game. Fairness and the best interests of the game are not served by killing this hand. That said, it's yet another example of someone getting screwed because they thought they'd be fancy and didn't hold onto their cards until they were awarded the pot. It's like walking in front of a speeding car even though you're in a crosswalk. [/ QUOTE ] I think common sense would include protecting your hand and not throwing your cards accross the room. The guy with the 8 is a fish, i would be happy to see the pot head his way, and rules are the rules for a reason. (ok i might be a nit)
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#5
08-22-2005, 11:56 AM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The floor blew it, IMO. Regardless of the technical rules of whether both cards still have to be live, etc. it is clear from your story that the player had the Q and was entitled to the pot. The most important rule should be common sense. If the Q was the card that ended up off the table I think there might be some gray area, but once again, the rules are supposed to be to create a fair game. Fairness and the best interests of the game are not served by killing this hand. That said, it's yet another example of someone getting screwed because they thought they'd be fancy and didn't hold onto their cards until they were awarded the pot. It's like walking in front of a speeding car even though you're in a crosswalk. [/ QUOTE ] I think common sense would include protecting your hand and not throwing your cards accross the room. The guy with the 8 is a fish, i would be happy to see the pot head his way, and rules are the rules for a reason. (ok i might be a nit) [/ QUOTE ] The reason being that people could do some card manipulation, dropping a card from their person onto the floor, face-up, while pocketting the card that they are removing from the game.
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#6
08-22-2005, 02:28 PM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The floor blew it, IMO. Regardless of the technical rules of whether both cards still have to be live, etc. it is clear from your story that the player had the Q and was entitled to the pot. The most important rule should be common sense. If the Q was the card that ended up off the table I think there might be some gray area, but once again, the rules are supposed to be to create a fair game. Fairness and the best interests of the game are not served by killing this hand. That said, it's yet another example of someone getting screwed because they thought they'd be fancy and didn't hold onto their cards until they were awarded the pot. It's like walking in front of a speeding car even though you're in a crosswalk. [/ QUOTE ] I think common sense would include protecting your hand and not throwing your cards accross the room. The guy with the 8 is a fish, i would be happy to see the pot head his way, and rules are the rules for a reason. (ok i might be a nit) [/ QUOTE ] The reason being that people could do some card manipulation, dropping a card from their person onto the floor, face-up, while pocketting the card that they are removing from the game. [/ QUOTE ] Absolutely, and if this happened in the middle of the hand I would have no qualms with his hand being killed since there would be no way to ensure he wasn't cheating without revealing the cards of the other players. But in this case, the card that mattered was clearly visible and never left the table and he gains nothing by switching out the other card. Even if he did switch out a card with all the cards already out for completeness the dealer could count the Queens in the deck to be sure that no duplicate card had been introduced into the deck. Nothing will be compromised at this point by revealing all the cards. The whole point is all the rules about having two live cards, etc. are there to ensure a fair game. The fair result here is that the guy who had the best hand should win the pot - I have seen no argument that this guy did not in fact have the best hand prior to dropping one of his cards. Using the rules to take this pot away from him produces an unfair result goes against their intention, hence the "best interest of the game" rule to override the standard rules in cases like this one. Another poster has vehemently claimed in his card room this hand is automatically dead with no exceptions - well I'm sorry and I intend no personal offense, but that's a strong sign of a poorly run card room. The "floor" exists because the rules can't just be blindly followed all the time.
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#7
08-22-2005, 02:39 PM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
[ QUOTE ]
Another poster has vehemently claimed in his card room this hand is automatically dead with no exceptions - well I'm sorry and I intend no personal offense, but that's a strong sign of a poorly run card room. The "floor" exists because the rules can't just be blindly followed all the time. [/ QUOTE ] This is probably the most important point made in this thread. There are a lot of places wehre they lack the knowledge to make good decisions so htey try to follow the rules blindly. To really understand this you have to look at how poker rules are written. Poker was played prior to the rules being written and then someone writes down how it is played to show someone that is unfamiliar with the game. When a floorman has to rule contrary to the literal rules to maintain fairness the management shoudl revisit the rule to see if maybe they coudl write it better to maintain fairness.
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#8
08-20-2005, 10:26 PM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
This is another case of a floorman trying to apply rules he doesn't understand. The best hand gets should get the money. Anyone that wants to award the pot to other than the best hand is most likelyl new to poker and does not have a solid understanding of the rules.
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#9
08-21-2005, 05:29 PM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
[ QUOTE ]
This is another case of a floorman trying to apply rules he doesn't understand. The best hand gets should get the money. Anyone that wants to award the pot to other than the best hand is most likelyl new to poker and does not have a solid understanding of the rules. [/ QUOTE ] Are you saying the rule at your casino is that a hand with one card on the floor is live?
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#10
08-21-2005, 06:25 PM
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Re: Floor ruling, need input
[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying the rule at your casino is that a hand with one card on the floor is live? [/ QUOTE ] If you see someone drop $20 do you pick it up and keep it? I mean, he should have been more careful, right? That pot belonged to the guy with the Queen. He should be told to be more careful with his cards, but he wasn't trying to cheat. If I was the other player I would refuse this pot because I am not a thief. Plain as that.
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