Butchered Boat

SlyAK · #1 08-19-2005, 02:03 PM

This is just awful..... Important stacks ME ($99), BB covers, button $75 or so.

I am dealt 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG+1, I limp, 2 other limpers, BB comes along.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] .... BB leads for $4, I make it $12, Button cold calls. BB folds.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] check, check.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I lead for $15, button raises to $35. I fold.

Let me have it!

Sly

orange · #2 08-19-2005, 02:32 PM

I would probobly check/call a reasonable bet on the river. Button cold-calling is scary. Maybe I'm just weak...

taran · #3 08-19-2005, 02:36 PM

Bet turn, full pot.

GrunchCan · #4 08-19-2005, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet turn, full pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

taran · #5 08-19-2005, 02:57 PM

well. 'cause hero does not want anything higher then 8 or h fall on river. If he has A and drawing, you have to price it. In addition you gain information. If he has 7, bigger pair he might re-raise figuring hero for the boat and we will fold.

GrunchCan · #6 08-19-2005, 03:01 PM

It sounds to me like more a case for just calling the flop bet, in that case.

If the opponent has AK, for instance, do we really want him to fold? Or would we rather he just keep betting incorrectly?

If the opponent has a higher pair, our raise only loses us money.

If the opponent has a lower pair, our rasie kills the action, thereby losing us money.

Sounds to me like calling the flop is the way to go here.

CaptainNoBeard · #7 08-19-2005, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If the opponent has AK, for instance, do we really want him to fold? Or would we rather he just keep betting incorrectly?

[/ QUOTE ]

if its just the two of us, and we could put him squarely on AK, thats a fine thought process. but we're dealing with a handful of limpers. any broadway card is a scare card. and the fact that we're not closing the action weighs in on it- by calling, its easier for another limper to peel a card off with some high cards. we won't have position on anyone but the original bettor.

[ QUOTE ]
If the opponent has a higher pair, our raise only loses us money.

[/ QUOTE ]

taking into account the limping, a lower pair / broadway cards hand is much more likely than 9's and up. raise accordingly. and be content to take it down. facing an overcard out of position against two opponents is not something we want to (or have to) deal with.

[ QUOTE ]
If the opponent has a lower pair, our rasie kills the action, thereby losing us money.

[/ QUOTE ]

he might fold sixes or lower there, but its not likely at this level. also, a flop raise prevents a hand like 6's from coming over the top and making us fold a better hand. pocket sixes or worse aren't reraising his flop- by raising, i think you can get away from this hand easier if you are reraised on the flop. if you just call and its raised behind you, it makes for a tougher decision.

i still like the flop raise.

CaptainNoBeard · #8 08-19-2005, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hero does not want anything higher then 8 or h fall on river.

[/ QUOTE ]

hero isn't too concerned about heart falling on the river. and cold-calling a flop raise to see a turn with high cards isn't likely, either.

[ QUOTE ]
you have to price it. In addition you gain information. If he has 7, bigger pair he might re-raise figuring hero for the boat and we will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think you get as much information as you think. he's not automatically coming over the top on the turn with a 7- he might want to wait and see if we hang outselves on the river. the way we played the flop (seems too fast for us to have quads), pocket 9's and above aren't folding to a turn pot bet. and if an underpair to the seven folds, thats no good.

checking turn keeps the pot under control. by betting, we build a pot out of position, don't get much information. and by checking the river with the intention of calling, we get worse hands to bet, and it costs us considerably less when we're beat.

GrunchCan · #9 08-19-2005, 03:31 PM

Somehow I missed the button. I thought it was HU after the flop, and we were in position.

Based on this, I like the way the hero played it, except I also prefer check-calling the river.

How's that for an about-face?

CaptainNoBeard · #10 08-19-2005, 02:41 PM

i like check-calling the river.

once the bb calls, narrow his range to a 7 or a pocket pair. way ahead, way behind situation. check the turn. check-call the river. by checking, some hands worse than yours will take a stab at it, and quads will naturally bet as well, but it'll cost less than betting and facing a raise- you get value out of some worse hands, and you lose less when you're beat.