Suited garbage in the BB. How many cold callers before you come along?

[Nigel]

What's the verdict on when garbage suited hands can be profitable in the BB, played for a single raise, and after x number of cold callers?

Anytime I've experimented with calling with real crap, like T2s, I find I basically do a lot of check folding. However, I've played this game far too long to not have a definitive play in these situations.

Can someone steer me in the right direction on this one? I've heard/read all sorts of varying opinions, but they can't all be right.

Thanks,

Nigel

[Nigel]

Also, let's just assume that one plays well above average post-flop.

[daryn]

i like calling with anything suited when getting around 6:1

[Your Mom]

I like 3 others. I will call with 2 others if my suited cards are at least kinda decent like Kx or 2 cards that could make a straight.

[Turning Stone Pro]

[ QUOTE ]
I like 3 others. I will call with 2 others if my suited cards are at least kinda decent like Kx or 2 cards that could make a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

[TXTiger]

Just to be clear, I think when people say 3 others they are saying 3 total and not 3 coldcallers + the raiser. 3 total give you 7:1 odds, which is where I will play any 2 suited. I think that you are around 7:1 to flop 2 pair or better or a 4flush with any 2 suited. I'll call 5:1 with almost any 1 gapper, but a 2 gapper needs some high card strength. I'm never sure about Kxs or Qxs getting 5:1. I usually fold unless I know the raiser to be a loose raiser. My current database unfortunately is too small to look at these hands specifically after calling a raise in the bb.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to be clear, I think when people say 3 others they are saying 3 total and not 3 coldcallers + the raiser. 3 total give you 7:1 odds, which is where I will play any 2 suited. I think that you are around 7:1 to flop 2 pair or better or a 4flush with any 2 suited. I'll call 5:1 with almost any 1 gapper, but a 2 gapper needs some high card strength. I'm never sure about Kxs or Qxs getting 5:1. I usually fold unless I know the raiser to be a loose raiser. My current database unfortunately is too small to look at these hands specifically after calling a raise in the bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

They mean three opponents to play any two suited for one more bet out of the BB.

[ike]

I generally play any 2 suited from the BB closing the action with 2 other opponents. If I'm not closing the action I often fold the 83s and such.

[bobbyi]

You are playing a long shot hand where you are are almost certainly behind pf because you are being offered great odds to take a look at the flop and see if you catch a lucky one. So why would you find it surprising or bad that you "basically do a lot of check folding" on most flops? Against three opponents with T2s, that seems like the right game plan.

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
You are playing a long shot hand where you are are almost certainly behind pf because you are being offered great odds to take a look at the flop and see if you catch a lucky one. So why would you find it surprising or bad that you "basically do a lot of check folding" on most flops? Against three opponents with T2s, that seems like the right game plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm find myself going in spurts of playing a hand like this anytime I am getting 5:1 ish, or throwing these bad suited hands away unless I am going to a flop 4-5 way or better.

The reason I am not consistent is because I honestly have never been sure of *exactly* what's best and I imagine the middle ground to be somewhat close to neutral (I hope). The thing is, for the number of times that I feel like I have to just throw these hands away post flop or I go to SD and lose, I never feel like I make up for it with the times that I catch a pot. Even when I lean towards folding these more often, my rabbit chasing rarely has me thinking "oops". However, in all fairness, it was indeed a T2s with which I missed a huge pot the other day and I was getting a nice price pre-flop but was involved in a complicated hand at another table so I just tossed it - and then puked after I saw what could have been.

Results oriented I know, but it made me figure it's about time to have a default play in these situations instead of relying on the phases of the moon to decide. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So, it is the general concensus that hands like 72-J2 can be played profitably against a reasonable EP raiser and a cold caller or the SB coming along? Would you call would these in the SB in the same situation if you knew the BB was 90% to see the flop?

I guess I find it hard to believe that these hands can be played for a profit against your average 17/10/2. What's your game plan on these hands when you flop top pair on a rainbow ragged flop and you know the PFR is likely to raise AK if you bet into him? And, you know the cold caller is likely to raise the flop with his pocket pair he cold called with if you check and PFR bets, which he will. So if you bet you get raised and get no information, and if you check it will likely be 2 back to you from the cold caller who has a hand you might likely beat.

How much do you like flopping top pair with a Tc2c on Td 7h 3s flop?

Nigel