Comments on TSP's private game with Dcfir, schneids, alexsem etc.

skp · #1 08-16-2005, 05:56 PM

I watched a heckuva game last night. Crympayz's 15-30 private 6 max table with TSP himself, Schneids, Dcfir, AlexSem, Kakmasta (sp?), the derelict etc.

I sat on the rail and watched the game for a good 90 minutes or so while I was doing some office work.

Tough game. Not one that I would ever play in except for educational purposes.

But in any event, I do have some observations and comments which hopefully we can all discuss. I preface my comments by saying that I have very little experience playing short games. So, If I am out to lunch with some of my observations, well, I am sure you guys will let me know.

Overall, it seemed to me that all of you were playing too aggressively. The one notable exception was dcfirths who I thought had a good mix of aggressive value bets, aggressive bluffs, rope-a-dope strategy, simply giving up now and then etc.

As an example of over-aggressive play, I was amazed that in the whole 90 minutes or so that I was watching, there was hardly an occasion where the small blind open-limped. If everyone folded, the small blind invariably open-raised. To me, that simply has to be suboptimal strategy. The bb has position on the sb. The bb ain't folding frequently to the sb's raise because he knows the sb has light open-raising standards (in fact, It seemed like no standards at all...it was just raise everytime). Playing weak hands for a raise when out of position does not yield optimal results.

It's true that by raising, you seize the initiative. But this mitigating factor is largely negated by the fact that the bb would often take back the initiative with a preflop 3 bet or a flop raise. Further, even if there was an advantage to be gained by seizing the initiative, I am not sure that the cost incurred to gain that advantage (i.e. the extra small bet) was worth it to counter the positional disadvantage.

Overall, I would probably limp a lot more from the sb. I wouldn't fold given the blinds structure whereas I might well fold extremely weak hands in the 30 game.

Now, of course, limping doesn't necessarily mean that you will see the flop cheaply. The bb might and likely would raise. You might then argue "what good then comes from my calling? He now has position and initiative" Well, there is no pat answer to that. You simply must play good poker postflop. You may also be able to take the chips from the raise that you didn't make preflop to put in a loose bet or raise postflop (now and then) when there is more info at your disposal and when it is easier for him to misread your hand.

Also, once they see you limp in with relative "mosters" such as Q9 offsuit, A6 off suit, 98 suited", they will reduce their preflop and postflop aggression themselves.
In fact, I am thinking out aloud here (so to speak), but you generally want to play small pots when out of position and big pots when in position (all other things being equal). Open-limping from the sb helps achieve that goal. Open-limping with relative monsters like A7, Q9 will also enable you to limp in with 93 offsuit and not give the other guy a license to steal.

Another related observation is that if the button open raised, the sb never just called. He always folded or 3 bet. Again, there has to be times when calling is best given the positional disdavantage. There are also times when you want to have 3 way action rather than 2 way action in order to make the pot more protected postflop.

Anyway, I have more to say but no time to say it.

I look forward to your comments on these limited observations.

Paluka · #2 08-16-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Another related observation is that if the button open raised, the sb never just called. He always folded or 3 bet. Again, there has to be times when calling is best given the positional disdavantage. There are also times when you want to have 3 way action rather than 2 way action in order to make the pot more protected postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

We had a big thread about this a while back. I'm a big call the button raise from the small blind guy.

MrTeddyKGB · #3 08-16-2005, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We had a big thread about this a while back. I'm a big call the button raise from the small blind guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

link?

ggbman · #4 08-16-2005, 06:47 PM

I was TheKakmaster in this game, and there's definitly some interesting stuff to discuss. In general with these types of games, some of the players have played against each other in the past. TSP, schneids, and Dcfir played much aggressively against each other than they did the rest of the field. This probably led to some other players (me) playing a little more loosely when these guys were tangling. Your observation about the blind play was pretty accurate. I probably open completed more time than anyone in the small blind, but quickly realized this wasn't going to work with how aggressive everyone else was playing.

I felt like i had to play more aggressively to play profitably in this game. Players in this game were good at adapting to how someone was playing, so mixing it up was very neccesary. I can recall 4 multi-street stone cold bluffs i made, and while i only took down 2 of the pots, i think the other 2 helped my table image. Schneider made a crack or 2 sitting down, he thought i was playing like a jackass. Anyway, there were a few hands i wanted to post, i'll see if i can find them.

haakee · #5 08-17-2005, 02:42 AM

I'm more likely to do this when the BB is a donkey who will make the play of the hand simpler. It doesn't sound like there were any people who fit this description in this game.

Barry · #6 08-16-2005, 06:52 PM

Yeah I kind of agree.

I got into the game much later in the evening and there did seem to be a little too much testosterone in evidence.

There was a lot of open raising PF with junk and 3 betting with marginal hands and a bit too much coldcalling as well. And that's not to mention the post flop stuff. But I guess that is to be expected in games like these.

ggbman · #7 08-16-2005, 06:57 PM

Yeah i loved that comment you made Barry. I believe it was, "I love it when you guys get in dick measuring competitions."

ggbman · #8 08-16-2005, 07:16 PM

Ok, here are some interesting hands.

Hand 1: BB is Fianchetto. We have been playing our blinds very aggressively, he has been playing back at me after i showed some ridiculous bluff a while ago. (We were all showing uncalled hands)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

This one was against schneids, we have played a few pots, and i think he respected my play.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

River: (9 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

And one more against Schneids...

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (2 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Those are a couple of the hands i thought were mildly interesting.

Schneids · #9 08-16-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

And one more against Schneids...

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (2 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me just say that I was and still am very pleased with this river raise.

ggbman · #10 08-16-2005, 07:24 PM

It baffled the crap out of me out at the time, and i seriously did consider mucking. You and I were playing pretty liberally with each other, so i thought it was entirely possible you had a 4. However, after recalling this hand

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Button raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Button calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Button raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Button has 5h 5d (two pair, fives and twos).
SB has Qs 7d (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Button wins 10.50 BB. 

where you popped the river with 55, i felt your range on this river raise was broad. I seriously would love to know how you had the balls to make that value raise in that spot, i am never getting that extra bet in?