67s, great flop but 2 bets to you?

smokylosecannon · #1 08-10-2005, 03:22 AM

MP1 is a LAG. What your opinion about 3 bets on flop? Flop looks great for my cards but someone could have made stright. I raised to kick higher flash draw out. What do you guys think? better to just call and try to get some caller??? Also, what should I do after I made 2 pairs on turn???

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero?

Donkey Kong · #2 08-10-2005, 04:05 AM

I like your flop play. You could be up against a made straight, but that shouldnt bother you at this point. You have a SF draw and top pair on the flop. I'd cap this flop if I could.
On the turn things are a bit more shady. 4-handed with a lot of action. Most likely you need to improve (but you might have the best hand atm), and you cant be sure all your hearts are good. But most likely you have 6 guaranteed outs (for boat and SF) and there's a good chance you will win with a flush. You cant fold, and you have to make the guys behind you pay to see the river. I'd raise it again.

Does this nOOb advice make any sense? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

aK13 · #3 08-10-2005, 04:11 AM

3bet for value on the flop. You have the flush draw, plus another 7 is likely to give you a winning hand. Your equity is probably somewhere around 40-45% -- with every extra bet going in, you are making money (as long as 3 people call), as you expect to have the best hand by the river that percentage of the time. You are NEVER folding out bigger flush draws, period.

Call the turn. You have 4 outs to full house, plus 9 outs to flush, 2 of which give you the nut straight flush. You might still be ahead as MP1 could just be betting as a bluff on this board, or a weaker 2 pair. However, your raise is only going to knock out the other 2 players, who you would like to call to pad the pot in case your draw doesn't come in. Re-evaluate whether to call or fold the river if you are unimproved.

Whew.

Thats the most detailed post I've written in a while.

-Adam

Donkey Kong · #4 08-10-2005, 04:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Call the turn. You have 4 outs to full house, plus 9 outs to flush, 2 of which give you the nut straight flush. You might still be ahead as MP1 could just be betting as a bluff on this board, or a weaker 2 pair. However, your raise is only going to knock out the other 2 players, who you would like to call to pad the pot in case your draw doesn't come in. Re-evaluate whether to call or fold the river if you are unimproved.

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I dont quite get this one... Why would you want two more players to "pad the pot" if you dont improve? They might be drawing and catch whatever they need if they get a cheap river. I was thinking it would be good to isolate the MP1 joker and get it HU if possible, or make a higher flush draw pay.
Am I completely off?
(I know I might be considering my experience here at 2+2) [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

baronzeus · #5 08-10-2005, 04:27 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
Call the turn. You have 4 outs to full house, plus 9 outs to flush, 2 of which give you the nut straight flush. You might still be ahead as MP1 could just be betting as a bluff on this board, or a weaker 2 pair. However, your raise is only going to knock out the other 2 players, who you would like to call to pad the pot in case your draw doesn't come in. Re-evaluate whether to call or fold the river if you are unimproved.

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I dont quite get this one... Why would you want two more players to "pad the pot" if you dont improve? They might be drawing and catch whatever they need if they get a cheap river. I was thinking it would be good to isolate the MP1 joker and get it HU if possible, or make a higher flush draw pay.
Am I completely off?
(I know I might be considering my experience here at 2+2) [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

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A higher flush draw is something that we aren't worried about.

And yes. Call the turn. Your implied odds if you hit are huge.

aK13 · #6 08-10-2005, 04:35 AM

1. Who said a higher flush draw is out there anyway? The chance that a player is dealt 2 cards which both suited the same as another player is about 20%. On top of that, many of these hands involve garbage that is tossed preflop anyway (like 92s).

2. The problem with raising is that only better hands are calling. Rag pairs might call for 1, hoping their hand is still best, but will definitely fold for 2 if they can read a board. Even if only one of them calls behind us, we are risking 1 BB to gather 2 (1 from bettor, 1 from caller) on the turn if we call, but risking 2 BB to gather 2 (2 from caller), thus we win the same amount if we are ahead of a bluff/worse 2pair, but lose more if we are behind a straight.

-Adam

Kumubou · #7 08-10-2005, 04:41 AM

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And yes. Call the turn. Your implied odds if you hit are huge.

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I don't agree with this at all. Overcalling gets you one more BB max. Anyone with an 8 (and he's turbo-raising you), flush draw, and maybe even a 3 is going nowhere. Anyone else is probably shitting bricks at this board and is getting out of the way. Anyone who whiffs is paying off diddly on the river but will pay lots to draw, and there is almost nothing in made hands that likes their holding right now. Even a made straight may slow down on the river if you hit because they know you see four to a straight and you really do not give a [censored].

If someone behind you has the straight, they are going to war anyway. If they do not, they either have a decent draw (and will pay for it) or have little to nothing and will probably not even pay a bet to peel.

-K

Shillx · #8 08-10-2005, 06:57 AM

Did you see how big the friggin pot is?

If you call, someone behind you can call correctly with T9 or 9x and bust us. There is a decent chance that we are good here (and we have an ass kicking draw if we aren't) so let's bring the pain to anyone looking to draw to a better straight or a chop. Even if someone flipped up a straight, we still get value on the raise if all 4 people stay in the hand. Hell, we almost get value if just 3 people see the river since we have a chance of getting a chop out of it. This isn't the time to get passive. If we are losing the baby, we are going down in flames.

You also have to consider the EXTRA implied odds that we get by going nuts on the turn at little to no cost to us (if someone does happen to have an 8). If the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] comes on the river, it is game on. Everyone will "know" that we have a straight and we will sweep the floor clean with our boat. Similar comments apply to the times that we make a flush.

Brad

aK13 · #9 08-10-2005, 07:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Did you see how big the friggin pot is?

If you call, someone behind you can call correctly with T9 or 9x and bust us. There is a decent chance that we are good here (and we have an ass kicking draw if we aren't) so let's bring the pain to anyone looking to draw to a better straight or a chop. Even if someone flipped up a straight, we still get value on the raise if all 4 people stay in the hand. Hell, we almost get value if just 3 people see the river since we have a chance of getting a chop out of it. This isn't the time to get passive. If we are losing the baby, we are going down in flames.

You also have to consider the EXTRA implied odds that we get by going nuts on the turn at little to no cost to us (if someone does happen to have an 8). If the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] comes on the river, it is game on. Everyone will "know" that we have a straight and we will sweep the floor clean with our boat. Similar comments apply to the times that we make a flush.

Brad

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I still disagree with raising here. Our equity is approximately 30% at this point, assuming we are behind a straight. Our equity isn't enough to raise unless we get all 4 players to call.

We might still be ahead, granted, but I believe that trying to get a weak pair to overcall behind us praying for a chop is fantastic here since the draw doens't come in the majority of the time, and we might score another BB from him if MP1 bluffs the river again and the pair overcalls, and possibly Button with raise it for us on the turn, trapping the field.

Also, I think that we lose more when we are behind but win the same when we are ahead if we raise.

The thoughts are kinda [censored] up, since I'm tired as hell right now, but hopefully something meaningful is there.

I'm not convinced raising is right.

bottomset · #10 08-10-2005, 04:10 AM

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I raised to kick higher flash draw out. What do you guys think?

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um a 4flush is never folding on the flop or the turn ... you might be able to fold a single heart like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x .. but that is about it

the flop3bet is good

and I raise the turn here, if you get it HU with the Lag thats good, you are ahead of a LAG a decent % of the time, and have a lot of outs if behind .. its hard for me to put either BB or UTG on a straight given the action, likely they have weak pairs something like A4 or A5 but I don't see either haveing a 8 or 3 so you likely don't mind them tagging along for the ride