Faith Not "Enough" in Chritianity?

[David Sklansky]

I have a feeling that critics of Christianity, including myself, as well as members of some other religions, and athiests, sometimes make a statement (regarding what it takes to be "saved") that they kind of figure is obviously exaggerated. Christians, however often assume that there is no exaggeration in those statements.

Speaking only for myself (but thinking that most Christian critcs would agree with me) my actual understanding is this:

The Christian god wants two things from humans. That they be good and that they believe in him. If they do, they are "saved". There seems to be some difference of opinion among Christians if the "being good" part should be considered only a indication that you believe, or is in fact relevant in and of itself. But it doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion. Because all Christians seem to believe that beleiving in Jesus while SIMULTANEOUSLY doing bad things or PLANNING to do bad things is AUTOMATIC evidence that you don't believe. (What I am not sure about is the case where the capitalized word is changed to EXPECTING.)

So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.

A less dramatic example is the fellow who attends Church, does all the necessary preliminaries, truly believes that Jesus exists, and is planning to get the last rites and repent before he dies. But he is also planning to have way more fun than he should before that happens. Most non-Christians, again assume this guy will run into a problem according to Chritianity.

Now even if all the above is correct, there are still a lot of things about the way Chritianity overemphasizes faith that I, and others don't like. But it isn't as extreme as our statements sometimes appear. That subject is for another time.

For now I would just like to know if I accurately described the Christian position and also if I have accurately described the way most non Chritians think of Christianity as regards to this subject.

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So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.


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"proclamation of beliefs", and "professes new found faith".
the truth of these proclamtions and profesations(which only God can know) is going to be the determining factor for christians. if the child molester actually finds faith rather than merely professing it in his last seconds i think many christians(esp evangelical and fund) think he will be ok and will not be punished for having the misfortune to die seconds after this conversion of the heart.

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So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.


[/ QUOTE ]

"proclamation of beliefs", and "professes new found faith".
the truth of these proclamtions and profesations(which only God can know) is going to be the determining factor for christians. if the child molester actually finds faith rather than merely professing it in his last seconds i think most christians think he will be ok and will not be punished for having the misfortune to die seconds after this conversion of the heart.

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I tend to agree with this. My Christian upbringing taught me that proclaiming your faith isn't enough- you must truly believe it, and only God can make that determination.

[lehighguy]

Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

[coolhandluke]

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Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

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Again, totally dependent on which branch of christianity were talking about.

And, after thinking about it briefly, the original question is only really valid in 2 of the 4 areas I mentioned.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

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The sin against the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven is most likely attributing works of God/miracles to demonic forces. And re suicide, the state of mind of the person would be taken into account, as to be a sin an act must be known to be sinful and be a freely chosen act which suicide by a person with psychological problems would not necessarily be.

[bobman0330]

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Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

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The sin against the Holy Spirit that will not be forgiven is most likely attributing works of God/miracles to demonic forces. And re suicide, the state of mind of the person would be taken into account, as to be a sin an act must be known to be sinful and be a freely chosen act which suicide by a person with psychological problems would not necessarily be.

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For those interested in this issue, Graham Greene's "The Heart of the Matter" is a fascinating study. For that matter, people reading this thread might enjoy reading "The End of the Affair" as well. I won't get into details for fear of ruining the ending, but it deals with the sufficiency of belief.

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
"proclamation of beliefs", and "professes new found faith".
the truth of these proclamtions and profesations(which only God can know) is going to be the determining factor for christians. if the child molester actually finds faith rather than merely professing it in his last seconds i think many christians(esp evangelical and fund) think he will be ok and will not be punished for having the misfortune to die seconds after this conversion of the heart.


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Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

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So basically what you are saying is a person who is in a great amount of pain and commits suicide has zero chance of going to heaven, but a child molester can go to heaven as long as he truly "finds faith".

Is this the belief of most christians?

[Girchuck]

This depends on the method of suicide.
If you slash your veins in a bath tub, or take a slow poison, you'll have some time to repent this sin.

[vulturesrow]

David,

I think that is a pretty good summation. Christians of all stripes recognized that just saying "I believe" and truly believing are two separate things. The bottom line is that God can see what is in our hearts and he is the ultimate judge. This is why I find my Church's teaching (the Roman Catholic Church) to be the most reasonable on this subject. To claim to absolutely know the mind of an omniscient God is the height of arrogance in my opinion. Theologians try to make their best intepretation based on the signs which God has given us. But many things are are not easily figured out.