Push here no matter what?

Mr. Curious · #1 08-06-2005, 05:57 PM

End of a multi table tourney. There are 16 people left and the top ten get the money.

The blinds are 3000/5000 and I have 7000 left after posting the small blind.
There is a good player in the big blind and he has 13000 left after posting.

Given the blinds, my chips, and the number of people left, I should push with any two cards, right?

CardSharpCook · #2 08-06-2005, 06:03 PM

no, you can afford to fold. you are getting 2:1 on your money, you can be very liberal, but there are a lot of folds - J2o-32o, J3o-43o, J4o-45o, J5o-57o, T6o. These are all folds here, I think.

CSC

#3 08-06-2005, 06:17 PM

If there are no antes, why pick this spot here?

There will always be a small and big blind in the middle, it doesn't matter that you posted this particular one. You have several hands including your next big blind to double/triple/quadruple up.

Not saying you should play ultra-tight, but there is really no reason to push with absolute trash. If folded to you, you should push with a pretty big range of hands, but not even close to any two cards.

chopchoi · #4 08-06-2005, 06:39 PM

if it folds to me, i do one of two things here. if bb is the type to defend his blind liberally, then i call and push any flop. if i think it's better that 50-50 that he folds to my push, i push any two.

you cannot afford to wait another hand. lets say you get 23, and you fold. now yo're down to 7,000 chips, with a 5,000 BB. Your fold equity is practically zero, and you have to get past a SB and a BB. you don't want to put yourself in that situation. Push here.

#5 08-06-2005, 07:00 PM

He is down to 7000 anyway. Fold equity doesn't really matter. He doesn't need to pick up the blinds here as much as he needs to double/triple/quadruple up some time in the next 8 or so hands. If he is dealt something like J2o, he should fold and put his stand in someplace else.

Heck, I would probably push with 23o more than J2o, for two reasons: You can make straights with 23o and 23o is unlikely to be dominated by a hand he is likely to call with.

niin · #6 08-07-2005, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He is down to 7000 anyway. Fold equity doesn't really matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

It matters some. Do you want to make someone call 5K into a 15K pot, or 7K (or 4K or 2K) in an 8K pot?

Sure, the BB should call with virtually any hand due to the min raise, but at least in this situation he has a small amount more folding equity. If he folds, he has zero, because whoever the BB is must call any 2 cards for 2K more.

Mr. Curious · #7 08-07-2005, 05:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is down to 7000 anyway. Fold equity doesn't really matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

It matters some. Do you want to make someone call 5K into a 15K pot, or 7K (or 4K or 2K) in an 8K pot?

Sure, the BB should call with virtually any hand due to the min raise, but at least in this situation he has a small amount more folding equity. If he folds, he has zero, because whoever the BB is must call any 2 cards for 2K more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I got my math screwed up because when I pushed, it was a raise of 7K. So the BB had to call 7K to win a pot of 17K. Still, he had the odds to do it and my stack, at 9K remaining, was not enough to get anyone to fold to an all-in.

btw - I was the short stack at the table, so everyone could fold until it got back to me.

henrikrh · #8 08-06-2005, 07:29 PM

I would push any two unless I was sure the guy would call with a junk hand. Your fold equity is the best you can hope to get because you can raise 2x blinds, which you can't later if you fold since you will lose your SB.

Overall I think folding is more often going to cause you to go bust, when you pickup AK or something (if you manage to do so within an orbit anyways) then you are still going to get called by the BB and probably the SB and your chance of surviving is not very good. Also if you double up in either scenario you make more money doing so in the first one (pushing from SB).

Just my two cents.

Edit: that was all assuming it was folded to you. Otherwise everything changes.

durron597 · #9 08-06-2005, 07:36 PM

HOH2 says this is a clear push. I'm not as certain but I'm throwing it out there.

The thing is with your stack size this is probably your last chance to get it HU, and you're always at least 32% against a random hand in the BB.

Mr. Curious · #10 08-06-2005, 08:58 PM

I looked down to see Q3o and figured this was as good a time as any. If the BB folded, I was happy with the blinds and if he called, then at least I only had to beat one other hand.

Going back to the hand before this, should I have pushed as the big blind instead?

At that point, it was folded to the chip leader in the SB who called the big blind with 43000 left. I still had 10000 remaining after posting the big blind, but I only had 83o. This was unfortunately only my 6th hand at the table, so I didn't know whether he would call a push or not.