AK: opponent bets 3rd diamond

#1 08-04-2005, 03:08 PM

Opponent is typically bad 2/4 player.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero's action

I have a lot of opponents betting into me on this type of board after betting into me on the flop. What do I do? I have no data on opponent, but he's no TAG or anything.

Also is my play different if I have the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

SmileyEH · #2 08-04-2005, 03:10 PM

I think you can raise in both cases. Maybe fold to a 3bet.

-SmileyEH

W. Deranged · #3 08-04-2005, 03:12 PM

I think the play here is definitely to raise the turn, with the intent of probably folding to a three-bet. I'm planning on value-betting the river if checked to, though.

Sometimes this donk-bet represents a flush. A lot of the time, though, it represents a weaker made hand that doesn't want the turn to check through.

A raise here is very good because it charges a stray diamond the maximum. If opponent has a flush, he may well three-bet, which *might* allow us to get away from the hand if we have some kind of read. I think a call here is not good because we basically have no outs if we're behind and our opponent could potentially have a ton. Bet/raise without outs (reverse implied odds...), check-call with outs (implied odds...)

With the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in our hand, I really like calling the turn with the intent to raise the river. For the argument, you can basically reverse everything I just said about why I like a raise in the original hand. See why?

butters · #4 08-04-2005, 03:15 PM

i'd raise and fold to a three-bet. i see this as a bluff or semibluff a lot of the time. raising is better than calling, since you can fold to a three-bet and also charge him if he's drawing with a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

with the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], i'd call, since you'll need to see the river and don't want to pay three big bets to do it.

W. Deranged · #5 08-04-2005, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

with the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], i'd call, since you'll need to see the river and don't want to pay three big bets to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful of thinking too weak-tightly here; our hand is still going to be very much the best most of the time, and we are looking to maximize value. So we should call to raise the river, because it gets the most money in, while having the advantage of not forcing us to put in a third big bet on the turn. (That third big bet is one we don't want to put in, because it usually means we are behind; waiting for the river, though, is preferred because of it's value creation in addition to this.)

callmedonnie · #6 08-04-2005, 03:35 PM

With the Ace [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in our hand, you advocate calling the turn with the intention of raising the river. Obviously if you hit a diamond, no problem.

If he donk bets you though, you are going to lead into him agai n I'm assuming from your post? What is the plan on the 3 bet on the river?

W. Deranged · #7 08-04-2005, 03:49 PM

In position, I'm planning on raising a bet from villain on the river. Position is very nice here because we are gaurenteed that bets will go in on the river.

If villain gets frisky and three bets, I'm very mad and probably start punching things and stuff... I'll need a read, but with 11 BB in the pot, needing to be ahead about 9% of the time... I don't know, against an unknown I might, I don't know... maybe... call or fold or something.

River three-bet would SUCK! I don't think folding is going to be that bad ever, because river bluff raise three-betting is very, very rare. So, actually, I'll fold and not be too concerned about it.

I think this is a very unlikely outcome; we have the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and so lesser flushes may well not three-bet us on the river for fear we were slow-playing the nuts.

callmedonnie · #8 08-04-2005, 04:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a very unlikely outcome; we have the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and so lesser flushes may well not three-bet us on the river for fear we were slow-playing the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure that the river three bet is all that rare. Imagine you hit the flush and donk bet on the turn for value beacause a c/r looks to obvious and you want to get bets in. If the late player just calls, you're leading river obviously. If you get raised and the river isn't a diamond, are you not three betting your flush out of fear?

At the same time his donk bet does hint of protecting against a four flush, so we are likely ahead. In which case what is wrong with raising the turn?

Either way, we are putting in a raise somewhere w/ the same amount of bets. The advantage the river brings is that we have seen all the cards, and can fold to a raise with more confidence.

SmileyEH · #9 08-04-2005, 03:20 PM

Raising and folding to a 3bet as a default is a leak. There are many players that will 3bet with worse hands. Not that 3bet/folding is wrong all the time, but it shouldn't be your default. If you raise not sure whether your opp is capable of 3beting a worse hand you should just call. This is a common mistake I see in TAG's at 2/4 all the time. Try not to put yourself in situations where you aren't sure whether folding or calling is correct because it sets you up for big mistakes.

-SmileyEH

W. Deranged · #10 08-04-2005, 03:23 PM

FWIW, I'm probably calling down a three-bet against an unknown, but I'm not going to be happy about it.

A turn raise is right here, in my opinion, because we are going to be ahead so much of the time and getting our money in against a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] draw is an absolute must.