Hit 2nd pair vs. PF Raiser

AliasMrJones · #1 08-03-2005, 01:40 PM

Villain was 16.5/6.5/3. How is this line?

Party Poker (10 handed)

Preflop: AliasMrJones is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, EP raises, MP calls, button calls, AliasMrJones calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
AliasMrJones checks, EP bets, others fold, AliasMrJones raises, EP calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
AliasMrJones bets....

W. Deranged · #2 08-03-2005, 01:42 PM

Looks pretty good.

Villain is pretty taggish. He would likely bet this flop with many hands that did not connect, and likely would three-bet the flop with hands that beat you. I think it is very likely villain missed, and your hand is good. If you get raised on the turn you have an easy fold.

callmedonnie · #3 08-03-2005, 01:51 PM

I agree that this is an easy fold. What do you think of flop lead? I tend to got that route more often.

krimson · #4 08-03-2005, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that this is an easy fold. What do you think of flop lead? I tend to got that route more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

The trouble with leading the flop vs a TAG is that they may be raising with overcards, or a fairly strong underpair. A c/r defines our situation a bit better.

callmedonnie · #5 08-03-2005, 02:08 PM

gotcha. makes sense.

W. Deranged · #6 08-03-2005, 01:57 PM

I don't like a flop lead because I really like to see how the hand plays out before deciding what I want to do. If I bet, a thinking EP player (EP could be a 2+2er, based solely on stats) might just call with overcards. Others might call behind, and then we're in a really bad spot. Other players may raise overcards as well, and we don't get much information. Betting basically forces us to be more confused than we were before.

So basically the flop check is "wait and see." We're going to probably fold to a bet and a raise, maybe call a single bet and a bunch of calls, and check-raise in certain desirable situations (like this one).

Betting kind of just gives up some options, I think.

brettbrettr · #7 08-03-2005, 02:10 PM

Lead the flop.

Paxosmotic · #8 08-03-2005, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

brettbrettr · #9 08-03-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

B/C I think he's auto-raising this flop and I'd like to get this HU.

I like the c/r line, but you could easily be put in a spot where you're allowing the other LP players to see a cheap turn b/c you can't c/r the flop after he auto-bets and 2 people call on a fairly drawy board. I guess its not that bad of a check and see spot consdiering if he bets, the other 2 call, and you call, the only cards you're really worried about are aces and kings and if one of those pops off you're probably folding anyways. Hmm, now maybe I do like a check-and-see. Dunno.

Paxosmotic · #10 08-03-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

B/C I think he's auto-raising this flop and I'd like to get this HU.

I like the c/r line, but you could easily be put in a spot where you're allowing the other LP players to see a cheap turn b/c you can't c/r the flop after he auto-bets and 2 people call on a fairly drawy board. I guess its not that bad of a check and see spot consdiering if he bets, the other 2 call, and you call, the only cards you're really worried about are aces and kings and if one of those pops off you're probably folding anyways. Hmm, now maybe I do like a check-and-see. Dunno.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, that's what I love, exposition. Great post. It just kills me every time someone posts a 4 word reply with no "why" on here. The why is the most important part.