AA 10/20, simple turn/river decision

Lurker4 · #1 08-02-2005, 04:06 PM

This is a 9-max table but is currently 6 handed. Villain is unknown. The average unknown is probably moderately aggro in this game. This is a pretty simple, standard situation...wondering what others do, 3-bet turn? Just calldown the c/r? Call turn c/r and raise river?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 6 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero...

slik · #2 08-02-2005, 04:16 PM

read dependent. barring a read, i raise the turn. calling down is not terrible. i'd wait to raise the river against overly aggro players. basically, caling and raising will be player dependent.

KidPokerX · #3 08-02-2005, 04:31 PM

If you're looking for a general answer, I'd probably reraise him on the turn and call a cap to showdown. The reason for this is that most players will either 3 bet you preflop with KK or atleast raise you on this flop, therefore I rule out KK. Although the liklihood of him slowplaying a set is high, the probability of him having AK here is greater. I think up to the turn you played this fine - I would carry this further and reraise.

The previous poster was correct, however, that these types of decisions are more player dependent than you may think. Against a red flagger I would simply show down cheaply.

Digs · #4 08-02-2005, 04:54 PM

I 3bet this without a read

JrJordan · #5 08-02-2005, 04:57 PM

I'd call the turn here and raise his ensuing river bet. You'll make more vs. a solid opponent who can fold to a 3-bet. Likewise a lower 2pair type hand is less likely to reraise on the river than they are on the turn.

Digs · #6 08-02-2005, 05:09 PM

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I'd call the turn here and raise his ensuing river bet. You'll make more vs. a solid opponent who can fold to a 3-bet. Likewise a lower 2pair type hand is less likely to reraise on the river than they are on the turn.

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I like.

KidPokerX · #7 08-02-2005, 06:45 PM

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I'd call the turn here and raise his ensuing river bet. You'll make more vs. a solid opponent who can fold to a 3-bet. Likewise a lower 2pair type hand is less likely to reraise on the river than they are on the turn.

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I like.

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Against some opponents I like, but for a no read I dont. The point of raising on the turn here is to leave your options open on the river. I think waiting until the river to raise him will lead you into trouble more often than not. By raising the river you leave your opponent open to losing only one bet on the river (if he folds) but will usually end up having to pay him off an extra 2 bets when he was indeed slowplaying a set or strong 2 pair. IMO waiting for the river to attack in this situation is costly.
Also, someone said that by raising the river you can get a small two pair to slow down. That is great and all, but why would you ever do that knowing he will most likely call with a better hand?
But hey, we all play different.

JrJordan · #8 08-02-2005, 07:51 PM

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I think waiting until the river to raise him will lead you into trouble more often than not. By raising the river you leave your opponent open to losing only one bet on the river (if he folds) but will usually end up having to pay him off an extra 2 bets when he was indeed slowplaying a set or strong 2 pair. IMO waiting for the river to attack in this situation is costly.

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This doesn't make sense. If you raise the river instead of the turn and he folds then he was most likely bluffing and you gained 3BB. If you decide to act on the turn by 3-betting and he was bluffing, he will fold to this 3bet and you only get 2BB. By waiting until the river, you induce another bet from a player who wouldn't call otherwise. Likewise, if the villain is slowplaying a set, then correct I will lose 2 extra BB on the river when he 3-bets. So, what's the difference between this and 3-betting the turn? He will cap here and guess what? You lose the same 2BB. Likewise, I think there's a better chance of the villain just calling your river raise with a strong 2 pair, than having him call your turn 3-bet. A turn smooth call, river raise line displays much more strength than a turn 3-bet line IMO.

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Also, someone said that by raising the river you can get a small two pair to slow down. That is great and all, but why would you ever do that knowing he will most likely call with a better hand?

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Again, this statement doesn't make sense. You're raising the river for value. Yes there is the possibility that he has two pair and you are beat. This same risk applies to 3-betting the turn as well though. My point is that there is a better chance of getting capped on the turn, than 3-bet on the river. First, impression wise I think a river raise means a LOT more strength after slowing down on the turn, than just ramming and jamming with a turn 3-bet. This means a 2-pair hand is more likely to slowdown because he might be behind. Second, and probably more important, a 2pair type hand on the turn can cap when you 3-bet, and not have to worry about you coming over the top with a 5bet. If you raise on the river though, he has to consider the fact that you can still reraise on top of his 3-bet. On the turn he doesn't have to worry about you coming over the top, on the river he does. Which scenario do you think our villain will slow down the most? My vote is the river.

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But hey, we all play different.

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Yes we do. The big difference is some of us are willing to explore other options before shutting them out completely.

KidPokerX · #9 08-02-2005, 11:05 PM

ok, you win.

wonkadaddy · #10 08-02-2005, 07:22 PM

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I'd call the turn here and raise his ensuing river bet. You'll make more vs. a solid opponent who can fold to a 3-bet. Likewise a lower 2pair type hand is less likely to reraise on the river than they are on the turn.

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i dig