TPGK v. possible river flush

[Fantam]

I have played some hands lately, when I have had TPGK and a possible completed flush draw has appeared on the river.

The first few times when I was in this situation (HU) I decided to bet the river for value (when I was checked to), and was then check/raised and shown the flush.

So deciding that I was unlikely to be called by a worse hand very often, I checked behind on the river the next time this happened and discovered that my opponent had been calling down with middle pair.

Here is an example of one of these types of hands:

Party Poker (10 handed, $0.50/$1) converter

(Table was loose passive IMHO, which means that I hadnt noticed any maniacs, and probably have to become more observant of my opponents' tendencies when I play. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666"></font>3 folds, MP1 bets, 4 folds, SB raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 6 sb)</font>
SB bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, SB calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 5 BB)</font>
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 7BB)</font>
SB checks, Hero....?

I have spent a bit of time thinking about this, and am now wondering whether it is usually best to bet the river for value in these situations or safer to just check behind. Its certainly expensive those times you get check/raised and shown the flush!

I would be interested to know what other players views on this are, and of course feel free to comment on my play on any streets.

[gharp]

Unless you have a read on your opponent that says he wouldn't call down without a flush draw, it's better to bet against the typical opponent in the micros. The range of hands they'll call down with includes flush draws, but also a whole host of other hands (middle pair, bottom pair, lesser Q's, etc) and there are more "other hands" than hands that should scare you.

There's a section on this in SSHE, I think ("Betting for value when a scare card comes").

[deucesevenoff]

It's a tough situation which I think definately deserves more discussion.

Regarding your play on this hand, I think a value bet on the river would be okay here because of SB's action on the flop: he just called your raise rather than re-raise. In my experience, if he had AA, KK, or a set he would have three bet you on the flop (unless he was planning on doing a stop-n-go or the good old check-raise-the-turn-with-a-set play. While this is a definate possibility, your question is with respect to the potential flush draw. The play I just mentioned is another can of worms and probably best left to another thread).

When he just calls your raise I don't think he has you beat.

His turn action also makes me think it is unlikely he is on a flush draw...you raised his flop bet and then he bets into you again on the turn. Unless he plays his draws EXTREMELY aggressively by this point I think you're more than likely to be up against another made hand rather than a flush draw.

I'd be more inclined to check the river if the guy just check/called the turn rather than bet out on the turn...THAT river check would look significantly more suspicious.

[GrunchCan]

What was the preflop action? Did MP1 just call the blind, or 2-bet?

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
What was the preflop action? Did MP1 just call the blind, or 2-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

MP1 limped and then called the raise from the SB.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What was the preflop action? Did MP1 just call the blind, or 2-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

MP1 limped and then called the raise from the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, 3-bet PF. Actually, in just about any case with AQo, I'm raising or folding.

[GrunchCan]

The loose-passive SB stop &amp; goes when a straight draw completes on the turn. Something like J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] seems very likely to me.

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
The loose-passive SB stop &amp; goes when a straight draw completes on the turn. Something like J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] seems very likely to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a good suggestion and I like the observation, but that didnt happen in this hand.

[deception5]

In regards to your comments, you can usually lay a hand down safely to a river check/raise when the flush card hits, especially at .50/1.00 (unless you know your opponent is a habitual bluffer). Middle pair isn't check/raising here. Some opponents will bluff raise a scare card though so be careful not to do this too often or against aggressive players. If you can't fold to a check/raise then you should probably check behind (or bet/call if you know they like to bluff check/raise).

In regards to this particular hand, raise the turn. Your opponent here is somewhat tricky pulling a stop and go (may think you're raising the flop for a free card) so I wouldn't pull a bet/fold line on the river.

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
In regards to your comments, you can usually lay a hand down safely to a river check/raise when the flush card hits, especially at .50/1.00 (unless you know your opponent is a habitual bluffer). Middle pair isn't check/raising here. Some opponents will bluff raise a scare card though so be careful not to do this too often or against aggressive players. If you can't fold to a check/raise then you should probably check behind (or bet/call if you know they like to bluff check/raise).

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like good advice. Each time I was check/raised on the river with a TPGK hand and I called the villain did have the made flush.

[ QUOTE ]
In regards to this particular hand, raise the turn. Your opponent here is somewhat tricky pulling a stop and go (may think you're raising the flop for a free card) so I wouldn't pull a bet/fold line on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes sense also.