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#1
07-27-2005, 09:30 AM
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Passively played 3 handed line check
I decided that this opponent was likely to bluff off a good amount of his stack to me, and I didn't raise the river because he only calls with a flush or a better king, right? I figured boards don't get more innocent than that.
PokerRoom No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money) Seat 1: SB ($4,990 in chips) Seat 6: Hero ($6,710 in chips) Seat 7: Button ($3,300 in chips) Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ANTES/BLINDS SB posts blind ($200), Hero posts blind ($400). PRE-FLOP 1 fold, BradleyJolly calls $200, durron597 checks. FLOP [board cards K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ] SB bets $400, Hero calls $400. TURN [board cards K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] SB checks, Hero checks. RIVER [board cards K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] SB bets $800, Hero calls $800. 
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#2
07-27-2005, 10:53 AM
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Re: Passively played 3 handed line check
I'd have moved in preflop, but since you didn't...
The minbet doesn't fill me with hope that the guy is going to bluff much off to me, but lets go with your read... if you just call the flop, you really have to turn up the heat on the turn. That check makes me shudder, your hand is too vulnerable at this point. Just bet and take down the pot, there's 1600 chips out there going begging.
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#3
07-27-2005, 11:12 AM
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Re: Passively played 3 handed line check
[ QUOTE ]
I'd have moved in preflop, but since you didn't... [/ QUOTE ] Look at the stack sizes, this is obviously wrong raising preflop might be correct, but pushing certainly isn't. [ QUOTE ] The minbet doesn't fill me with hope that the guy is going to bluff much off to me, but lets go with your read... [/ QUOTE ] This is my biggest concern with the hand. I am not certain that he will bluff off to me. [ QUOTE ] if you just call the flop, you really have to turn up the heat on the turn. That check makes me shudder, your hand is too vulnerable at this point. [/ QUOTE ] Why? I have no reason to put him on an ace (wouldn't he have raised preflop?) or a queen for much the same reason. Also I have absolutely no reason to believe he has the backdoor diamond draw. Really the hand I most fear here is like a Q6o (or Qd 6d for worst case scenario), but so much more of his range is drawing dead or close to it that I chose to check in case he bet again with what is probably the worst hand on the river.
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#4
07-27-2005, 11:26 AM
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Re: Passively played 3 handed line check
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'd have moved in preflop, but since you didn't... [/ QUOTE ] Look at the stack sizes, this is obviously wrong raising preflop might be correct, but pushing certainly isn't. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree. This is not the same as open pushing. SB has declined the opportunity to raise. Against normal players this means either a monstrous hand, or a mediocre or bad hand which will not be able to call a push (but may call a smaller raise). SB restealing, or calling the raise and outflopping me in a situation where I will be quite committed, is more of a concern to me than the low-percentage chance of him having the monster. Obviously this is a weapon you can't overuse. If I thought there was a higher than normal chance of him trapping for whatever reason, I'd follow your line and check. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] if you just call the flop, you really have to turn up the heat on the turn. That check makes me shudder, your hand is too vulnerable at this point. [/ QUOTE ] Why? I have no reason to put him on an ace (wouldn't he have raised preflop?) or a queen for much the same reason. Also I have absolutely no reason to believe he has the backdoor diamond draw. Really the hand I most fear here is like a Q6o (or Qd 6d for worst case scenario), but so much more of his range is drawing dead or close to it that I chose to check in case he bet again with what is probably the worst hand on the river. [/ QUOTE ] I take your point. I was actually going to use the example of Ax and deleted it when I realised he was unlikely to have it (although I limp with Ax here quite a bit). The problem is - what hand do you want him to make on the river? Even if he makes some underpair, he probably isn't going to call. He certainly isn't going to call more than 400, so even if you can cash in it's not much. Suppose he has a random nine like 95. Letting him make the queen is a disaster and if he makes the 9 or 5 you're getting nothing. I suppose you want him to bluff on the river with a worthless hand, but in my experience players don't do this as often as they should.
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#5
07-27-2005, 11:33 AM
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Re: Passively played 3 handed line check
[ QUOTE ]
I suppose you want him to bluff on the river with a worthless hand, but in my experience players don't do this as often as they should. [/ QUOTE ] That was the idea. Note, I don't do this sort of thing often. Normally I push preflop, but I decided that my hand was good enough and the stack sizes were exactly wrong to make pushing correct. And also most of the time I raise this flop.
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#6
07-27-2005, 12:56 PM
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Re: Passively played 3 handed line check
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'd have moved in preflop, but since you didn't... [/ QUOTE ] Look at the stack sizes, this is obviously wrong raising preflop might be correct, but pushing certainly isn't. [/ QUOTE ] You're wrong here I'm afraid, Durron. Pushing is a *very* viable option. There are 800 dead chips and your FE is HUGE. Also, the SB is only ~12xBB anyway so I'm not sure where you decided that the stacks were too large to consider such an option. You simply can't dismiss a push here. Post flop you took a decent line, IMO. I think just betting the flop and/or turning up the heat on the turn isn't a bad idea, however. On the turn a very significant amount of chips are up for grabs and I'd want to take them down as chip extraction will be difficult unless the villian hits a big hand somehow on the river. Yugoslav
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#7
07-27-2005, 01:33 PM
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Re: Passively played 3 handed line check
[ QUOTE ]
You're wrong here I'm afraid, Durron. Pushing is a *very* viable option. There are 800 dead chips and your FE is HUGE. Also, the SB is only ~12xBB anyway so I'm not sure where you decided that the stacks were too large to consider such an option. You simply can't dismiss a push here. [/ QUOTE ] So I guess you don't like this hand then (the previous hand): PokerRoom No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money) Seat 1: BB ($5,390 in chips) Seat 6: Hero ($6,110 in chips) Seat 7: SB ($3,500 in chips) Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. ANTES/BLINDS SB posts blind ($200), BB posts blind ($400). PRE-FLOP durron597 bets $1,000, 2 folds. ----------- or this hand (the next hand): PokerRoom No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money) Seat 1: Button ($3,390 in chips) Seat 6: Hero ($8,310 in chips) Seat 7: BB ($3,300 in chips) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ANTES/BLINDS Hero posts blind ($200), BB posts blind ($400). PRE-FLOP 1 fold, Hero bets $8,110 and is all-in, 1 fold. ----------- And then there's this hand, 2 hands later. The difference between this hand and the OP is the SB's stack size; above he had over 12xBB, here he's under 10. Plus it's just nice to mix up your play. Edit: also my 2nd card is much worse which makes me less inclined to play post flop (what happens if I flop a 4?) PokerRoom No-limit Texas Hold'em $20+$2 (real money Seat 1: SB ($3,590 in chips) Seat 6: Hero ($8,710 in chips) Seat 7: Button ($2,700 in chips) Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. ANTES/BLINDS SB posts blind ($200), Hero posts blind ($400). PRE-FLOP 1 fold, SB calls $200, Hero bets $8,310 and is all-in, SB folds. SHOWDOWN durron597 wins $9,110.
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#8
07-27-2005, 11:03 AM
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Re: Passively played 3 handed line check
I think it's fine. Raise the flop? Eh...don't know if I want to get in a pissing match. I might want to do a little check-up on the turn though. I'd throw the min-bet back at him. If he comes over the top.."fine, take it". But in the spirit of "checking it down", a likely cold call (or maybe even a fold!) by him, might provide you a cheap check-check at the river. Again though, I think the passive approach is ok with your stack. I'd just assume assert myself when opening, than duke it out post-flop on a hand that will leave you wondering 'am I really ahead?' at some point.
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#10
07-27-2005, 01:13 PM
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Re: Passively played 3 handed line check
Durron,
I don't think a PF push is all that bad. You have a lot of FE. Chips stacks are $7100, 4500, and 3300 if he folds. A nice spot for you. Also consider that pushing here tells SB that he must fold all marginal hands to you in the future. That is a big deal for you. You get to keep your blinds and steal theirs. Next time SB limps to you you'll know that he is trapping and you can easily avoid it. It's called controlling the table with your big stack. It can be risky I know so I think image and the last few rounds have a lot to do with it. I am not saying its a clear push but only that its a viable option.
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