The Brazilian guy shot in London

mackthefork · #1 07-25-2005, 07:34 AM

So we find out today that he ran because his visa had expired, yesterday Sir Ian Blair says this is likely to happen again.

ABC News Online

Comments.

Mack

#2 07-25-2005, 09:22 AM

clearly the british government/police force are in a tough spot. i believe they were staking out an apartment, this guy emerged, then ran when confronted. dude had brown skin/fled into the subway. In addition he was wearing a bulky coat in summer.(now we know he's used to the balmy brazilian climate)
Facts: your staking out an apartment in an investigation related to recent bombings. your looking for people with light brown skin. such a guy emerges. He runs when confronted. He's dressed in a fashion not condusive to the weather, but conducive to conceiling something. he flees into the subway.
point is, a significant percentage of the time, when all of these variables occur, the guy's a bomber. I can't imagine being in the london PD shoes. whats the acceptable level of collateral damage in preventing a terrorist attack?

Maybe there was a 20% chance the guy was going to kill 50 people with a bomb. the only way to 100% stop him was with 5 to the head. were the pot odds there?

mackthefork · #3 07-25-2005, 10:31 AM

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Facts: your staking out an apartment

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I heard it was a block of flats, slight difference.

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Maybe there was a 20% chance the guy was going to kill 50 people with a bomb. the only way to 100% stop him was with 5 to the head. were the pot odds there?

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I don't know about you but I value my own life significantly higher than 50 other peoples, so do most people, a police force above being questioned is a very dangerous thing.

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whats the acceptable level of collateral damage in preventing a terrorist attack?

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None in my opinion, collateral damage is what they are trying to prevent. I agree this is an unfortunate event, but I fear where it is we are likely to be heading if most people find it acceptable that you die if you run from the police, its just not the way we do things in the UK.

Regards Mack

#4 07-25-2005, 02:57 PM

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its just not the way we do things in the UK

[/ QUOTE ] clearly this isn't the way "things are done" in any civilized society. Imagine the stress the london police are under, the individuals on the london force. can you honestly say that in the shoes of the cops pursuing the guy that you wouldn't have done the same thing? What if you don't shoot the guy, and he detonates a bomb? I'm not trying to justify this event(well, maybe a little) the point is, in a situation like this, there are no right answers or happy endings. It's going to be ugly no matter how the situation is dealt with.
Secondly, correct me if i'm wrong, and i don't mean to be inflamitory, i'm just trying to put this in historical perspective: but relative to other western democracies, britain doesn't have a pristine record of maintaining civil liberties, IRA and whatnot. Not that 5 to the head can be considered merely a violation of the poor guys civil liberties, but...

mackthefork · #5 07-25-2005, 03:59 PM

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can you honestly say that in the shoes of the cops pursuing the guy that you wouldn't have done the same thing?

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No I couldn't be sure, its a tough job and a very tough call to have to make.

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Secondly, correct me if i'm wrong, and i don't mean to be inflamitory, i'm just trying to put this in historical perspective: but relative to other western democracies, britain doesn't have a pristine record of maintaining civil liberties, IRA and whatnot. Not that 5 to the head can be considered merely a violation of the poor guys civil liberties, but...

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I take your point, relative to which western democracies? not the USA? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Mack

Mack

etgryphon · #6 07-25-2005, 04:06 PM

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I take your point, relative to which western democracies? not the USA? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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NH.

With the Patriot Act and Padilla, we are riding the civil liberty horse to hell at the moment.

Brings to mind:

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They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security. - Ben Franklin

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-Gryph

Trainwreck · #7 07-27-2005, 05:14 AM

Basically, if he doesn't freeze and drop to the ground when asked to by the police, it's his own damn fault he got fragged, and it is within the job details to frag him, so I am wondering WTH all the fuss is about, making me think there is a LARGE piece missing to the story.

Mind you I understand the poor family getting pissed and all the police brutality accusations, they come with the territory, unfortunately.

The guy screwed up and it cost him his life is what I got out of this, act like it's happened before...

Not sure why the Brits want to pay off the family, if my first statement was true.
Just imagine all the old cases coming forth wanting paid! BAD PRECEDENT! (as opposed to BUSH: BAD President [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

>TW<

xniNja · #8 07-27-2005, 05:16 AM

How about they weren't wearing police uniforms and could have been anybody?

mackthefork · #9 07-27-2005, 06:31 AM

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The guy screwed up and it cost him his life is what I got out of this, act like it's happened before...

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The fact is it really doesn't happen here, the police shot a guy who was mildly drunk walking home from a DIY shop with a new leg for his table, the fact is most of the police don't bear arms, most of the ones who do have never shot anyone. The government and the met tell us these guys are highly trained, but in truth most of them have never shot at anyone. FWIW even though I was the OP, I had no intention of suggesting police brutality, implied or otherwise.

The main problem I have is that they say it will happen again, thats not good enough, in essence the facts that turned out to be the truth after the event, were much more likely than what was suspected when they killed him.

Regards Mack

xniNja · #10 07-26-2005, 09:03 AM

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Facts: your staking out an apartment in an investigation related to recent bombings. your looking for people with light brown skin. such a guy emerges. He runs when confronted.

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This is all wrong on so many levels. "Looking for people with light brown skin" is a terrible criterion. He runs when confronted? If 5 mean looking guys confront you (not wearing police uniforms) on what could be anything from a robbery to a hate crime, wouldn't running be a reasonable option?

I truly hope his family gets a large settlement and the UK police realize how stupid a "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" policy is.