KQs, Misplayed all around

CCass · #1 07-21-2005, 11:03 PM

Fairly early in the session, no great reads on the villan, had >100 hands for him in PT, but what the stats I had on him showed him to be a solid player (albeit with a very small sample size).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) converter

CO ($6.85)
Button ($125.30)
SB ($133.20)
BB ($233.80)
UTG ($194.80)
UTG+1 ($338.35)
Hero ($230.15)
MP2 ($179)
MP3 ($174.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $8, MP2 raises to $24, 5 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $16.

Flop: ($53) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $30, MP2 calls $30.

Turn: ($113) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $30, MP2 calls $30.

River: ($173) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $75, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $248

All comments from pre-flop to the river are welcomed.

BobboFitos · #2 07-21-2005, 11:12 PM

once you play this hand preflop postflop doesnt really matter

although i'd consider checkcalling, checkfolding, and checkraising the turn (in that order) before betting.

ajmargarine · #3 07-22-2005, 12:13 AM

Fold preflop to villians raise. You are behind all PP's and any Ax which are villians likely holdings. KQ is not a good hand to play OOP when this kind of strength is shown behind you by what you read to be a good player.

OK, as played, you're in the hand, now what. IMO, it's better to get information from villian by checking the flop and seeing if he bets weak or strong or bets at all. As it played you have no idea what he has the entire hand.

As you played it, you should have called the river bet. You were either ahead the whole way, or behind the whole way, as turn and river probably didn't help villian. If you are betting the whole way, you must have thought you were ahead, so why fold? And if you were going to fold to that size bet on the end, well you know where this is going, why be even in the hand in the first place. The trouble with checking on the end after betting the whole way is that we are not playing against pros here; SSHE players interpret a check like this as weakness more times than not, and go ahead and put you to the test just like this villian did.

This hand should have cost you between $2 and $8. (I limp KQ **sometimes** after a limper has already entered) Ended up costing you $84 and you didn't even see a showdown. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

DrPublo · #4 07-22-2005, 12:17 AM

Given that you saw a flop, I like check/calling the flop, and check/raising the turn all in if a heart falls (or you catch a Q or K), and check/folding otherwise.

The Doc

juggla · #5 07-22-2005, 12:20 AM

Few Questions to ask yourself before calling or folding this hand.

1st lets start before this hand had been dealt.
Q1: How was your table Image at this table? Where u shown to be Tight-Aggressive, Tight-Passive, Loose-Aggressive, Loose-Passive?

A1:Typical 2+2er are Tight-Aggressive or Loose Aggressive (I'll guess and Say Tight-aggresive as benifit of the doubt)So if I was sitting at the table and u raise, I will certainly not Reraise you Unless I have a Strong Starting hand.

Q2: What could be the Starting Hands VILLAN Could of reRaised U with?

A2: Well lets start with the most ovious to least AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK, AQs, JJ, ((AQ, TT, AJs, AJ KQs)).

 Q3:From you PT hands (100 Hands) You say he is shown to be a good tight aggressive player. What good hands would u Not reraise with in those Hands I just showed?

A3: Well as a tight-aggressive + Loose-Aggressive Player I would Rereaise another Tight-Aggressive player with only the TOP Hands (Ones in Double paranthasis I would more than likely Muck or just call and see a flop)

Q4: I Flopped Top Pair with Great Kicker, WHat should my move be???

A4a: Remember always think of what ur Table image is and what u feel the other Players Image is as well.

A4b: Coming out Betting is Fine When u hit a great Flop, you get a feeler Bet going. His call with either say I have a higher PP and I Hope u have AQ or KQ vs my AA or KK. We can discard AK since he would of rereaise u to steal the pot or fold out right. AKs is still possible if he has shown to grind u out to get the backdoor but not too likely.

Q5: So what hands can we put him on Now?

A5a: Well Now lets see, AA, KK, QQ, AQ, JJ AKs are still Possible
A5b: So now we are underdogs to AA KK QQ AQ and have a big hand on JJ & AKs (if he is ball-Z)

Q6: Turn Card 8h Now what?

A6: Turn Card came well for you. Not great but well. Now we have made some outs lets look at the Pot odds & Implied Odds vs the Outs. As I see it you have 9 outs to the flush (which will be well concealed) and 3 to the 2 pair and 2 to trips. so ur odds of improving the hand will be 11:46 or 1:3.5. The Pot is now at 113.00. Since $113.00/3.5=$33.00 Ur option is to Come out Betting at most $33 and hope that he will just call and not raise you or check and hope he checks or bets under $35 so u can see the river.

Q6: Out of the Outs remaining which outs will almost Guarantee me the Victory?

A6: As I see it any flush hitting the river will more than likely win u a good portion of the Villans Money since u will extrude almost as much as u bet on the river when u make the hand. Hitting the King to make top two pair may still put u as the underdog is he is holding QQ or KK though. So I am looking to Hit my Flush or Trip Queens.

Q7: River Missed me completly Now what?

A7: His Call to river shows me he has a Great hand and is slow Playing you. River card brought no scare card so he knows he has you.

Q8: What Cards can u finally put the Villan on then?

A8: If he had AA or KK I feel a Pot size raise on the turn would of came from him. U cant slow play this type of hand to the river. His bet on the river also give me the suggestion that he doesnt have AQs since again you came out betting I would of shut the hand down right at the flop. So now a Hand I could call u down with to the river and then make a bet on the river Would Be QQ (for Trips) or a busted AKs of Hearts.

Q9: SHould I bet or check on the river?

A9a: Always recap the betting pattern and what has been occuring on Flop Turn. Many clear cut answers will come to you that way.

A9b: It is between ruffly 2 hands I put him on (1 will make u a winner & 1 will make u a loser). If you check, and the pot being a good healthy amount, I Will come out betting on you in hopes you missed ur Draw or fear my Over Pair. I normally will bet 1/2 the size of the pot to steal.
Now Lets look at the other Side. With so much money in the Pot I need to bet one more time in hopes that he will fold or just call my hand. ANything in the Range of $50 is suffent enought to tell the other oponite, he has a hand but I missed so I will fold, Have have a great preflop hand but when he came out betting on the flop i will just call it down, and finally Great He bet again now I will put in a big Raise. If he folds or calls I dont mind losing that extra $50 to get that final bit of info I need. If he raises me I know where I stand as well and I can now Muck My hand.

FINAL NOTE: As far as I see it you played the Hand correctly up to the river. With so much invested in the pot and having a decent hand. Betting 1/4 of the Pot will give u the information u need against what could of possible QQQ or AKs Miss.

I hate to make this evaluation so long but I love replaying hands and really try to get a feel of what others are wanting me to do.

UOPokerPlayer · #6 07-22-2005, 01:25 AM

Fold PF. KQs OOP against a good player who's taken the lead? Not so good. At the flop I like your bet to be $40. If I'm called I'm done with the hand.

ohkanada · #7 07-22-2005, 12:13 PM

Pre-flop I wouldn't do the initial raise after a limper. I would rather play a small pot with KQs. I fold to the reraise.

I have no problem with your leading out with top pair. Once he calls I would be worried. The only thing he could have for you where you are winning is maybe JJ or TT.

On the turn I would check and hope he checks through or bets small. Although one good thing with your bet is you got to see the river for reasonably cheap. If you check and he bets 2/3 of the pot you would need to fold even with your draw. Of course one bad thing is if he mini-raises the turn, you would be forced to call. So checking is a better play.

Good fold on the river. Unless he is goofy he has you beat.

Ken

kingofswing · #8 07-22-2005, 12:21 PM

I don't like calling the raise. I would probably check/call the flop or fold. With one heart, I guess I will see one more card, try to turn a draw or two pair. Now that he's got the lead, I check turn for a free card or if he bets I go all-in. A check/call on flop and check/raise all-in has got to look like a set to a decent player, and you have a lot of fold equity there. If he calls, you hopefully have at least 11 outs if he has no Q and no hearts. You have 12 if he has AQ no hearts, and you have 14 outs if he has AA. So that's how I would play it.

But I would tend to not raise this hand, not call the preflop raise OOP, and I would really be tempted to fold the flop to a pot sized bet.

I find that in general one of the most underrated plays against big hands is to slow play your okay hand. By raising and calling the raise you are saying you have a good hand and giving the other guy reason to bet the pot because he thinks you might just call. However, when you limp, someone raises, you call, you check, people tend to slow down and extract rather than betting out as hard as they normally would. In this case, playing as if you didn't have a Q (which you made pretty obvious), might not be a bad play. You never know, with AA, he might even check it to act as if he had AK and missed. Just a thought. Not a strategy that always works, but it's a nice change from raise preflop/continuation bet. Sometimes people will price you in to draw if you play that way.

Matt Flynn · #9 07-22-2005, 12:31 PM

Chris,

Preflop I prefer a limp or a smaller raise unless you have been raising a ton of hands. The big reraise, particularly with you out of position, is cause for folding.

On the flop there is 3x the pot behind. Are you committed? If not you can see why the preflop call hurts you so much. Now is the time to correct your preflop error and check-fold if you think you really messed it up. If opponent is loose with preflop reraises, you are going to the felt and just need to think how to extract the maximum and yield the least in draws. So, if your opponent is really aggressive you might check-raise all in.

If he is more passive, you can check to get information or bet. You are likely at worst against 7 outs if you are ahead, so it is not a disaster to check the flop through. I prefer betting however. On the turn after you bet small if he's aggressive you might check-raise him all in. But if he was that aggressive you'd probably check-raise the flop. So I like betting the turn. With the $30 bet you invited him to come over the top of you. Were you prepared to call? If so and you were inducing a raise then he is aggressive and you might consider using his aggression against him earlier. If not he will likely call more than that if he'll call $30 so might as well bet more.

As played on the river I am calling against an unknown in a bigger game. If your average opponent is significantly passive on the river, then you might make a good laydown there, but in the games I frequent you pay off that small bet. This is why it pays so much to know something of your opponent's betting patterns.

If you give me more information about opponent I can clear up that mess a little.

Matt

TheWorstPlayer · #10 07-22-2005, 12:35 PM

Do you prefer the limp because of the UTG limper? I'm assuming you would open there, right?