Why do Jews Reject Jesus - Part 2

[bossJJ]

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If the standard of truth isn't the Hebrew bible, but rather whoever has the biggest miracle, regardless of how ridiculous the message, then Hinduism or some other religion may be the true religion.

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Since of course we Christians do believe in the hebrew bible, even though believing it to have been largely superseded, you effectively get a tautological free ride with us. This is not the case with those who don't believe in judeo-christianity at all, and you need to address them as well without resorting to an axiomatic assumption of the hebrew bible's truth.

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But I have addressed this extensively other threads, and it is you Christians who aren't addressing my points.

First, in the Hebrew bible God says His Torah is be observed forever, even after the real messiah comes. He tells us not to add to it, nor diminish from it (Dt. 4:2). In other words, it will never be superseded. The Torah is perfect, and God's laws are absolute and eternal. It doesn't make sense that God would keep redefining what is right or wrong, completely contradicting Himself in the process.

Second, He commands us to go to our own sages for questions of interpretation (Dt 17:8-13). In the time of Jesus, this would be Rabbis, levitic priests and the Sanhedrin. None of them accepted Jesus as the messiah, so we should follow their ruling, and reject jesus. In any case, he didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophecies. Why should we believe that God was also lying about what the messiah will do?

Third, God specifically commands us not to follow those like the gt authors who tell us to follow other gods (like Jesus) and who say that the Torah no longer has to be followed. Even if they produce a miracle (Deut 13:1-5), we must not follow them. As I said in the other thread:

"The problem is that many religions claim miracles. It would be impossible to investigate them all to see which, if any are, real miracles. God tells us simply to obey what He told us, to follow His Torah. That is the standard of what is true, not who produces the biggest miracle. Riding to heaven on a white horse is a pretty big miracle too, yet Christians don't become Muslims because of that. I doubt they've investigated any of the miracles of Hindus or Buddhists either. They just believe what they want to. In the bible, Elijah raised someone from the dead, but we don't worship him or assume he's the messiah. The real messiah will fulfill the messianic prophecies."

It is you Christians who haven't addressed the issue: If God lies and changes His mind; if He is superseding something He had claimed was eternal, if He wanted us Jews to follow someone that He had commanded us not to follow, to commit what He had previously said was idolatry; and if we were supposed to know this because of an alleged miracle recorded decades after it alleged happened, then He may have done so again. Christianity may no longer be the correct religion, and Christians should be investigating the miraculous claims made for other religions. Your "new covenant" may longer be in effect.

Why should we find the gt any more believable than the Koran or Book of Mormon? They are all books which contradict the Hebrew bible and claim that God changed His mind. We are supposed to follow each because Jesus, Mohammed and Joseph Smith were all allegedly sent by God, and each "holy" book claims miracles to prove it. Why should we accept the gt, yet reject the other two? None of you have given a good answer to this question, or even addressed the issue at all.

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As a suggestion, since these posts now bear no resemblence to the OP's post, why don't you two start a second "Why Jews Reject Jesus" thread. The original one is so long now it should be locked by the moderator.

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Very good idea.

[bossJJ]

Here is link to the first thread:

Why do Jews Reject Jesus?

[Zygote]

enjoyable read and case well made.

[bossJJ]

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enjoyable read and case well made.

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Thank you.

[Peter666]

Thanks for telling us why we should not believe in the Bible.

Now can you give us one single reason why we should believe the Torah which is in the same Bible?

[Zygote]

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Now can you give us one single reason why we should believe the Torah which is in the same Bible?

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I'm very confused. The old and new testament are clearly different things. Some people choose to regard them as the same and BossJJ is simply trying to lay out why that would be a ridiculous thing to do.

[Peter666]

You're right. I got confused too. I guess that is because they both contain equally stupid and implausible stories.

[bossJJ]

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Thanks for telling us why we should not believe in the Bible.

Now can you give us one single reason why we should believe the Torah which is in the same Bible?

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I was explaining why the gt is false, not the Hebrew bible. Since the gt contradicts the Hebrew bible on just about every theological point, it is silly for you Christians to include it in your bible, since you don't actually believe hardly anything it says. Two contradictory things can't both be true. So if the Hebrew bible is true, then the gt is false.

Since you Christians supposedly believe that the Hebrew bible is true, there is no need for me to prove its veracity (when debating a Christian). If someone doesn't believe it's true, I don't believe that we can absolutely prove that God exists and He gave us His Torah, at least not in the scientific sense that would satisfy an athiest.

Nevertheless, I have addressed the issue in the other thread. I believe God does exist and He did give us His Torah, and that it's not unreasonable to believe that. I will copy some of the relevant posts into this thread.

[bossJJ]

Repeat post:

Jews reject the gt for the same reasons that we reject the Koran and the book of Mormon. All three were written by delusional men who were following a false prophet. Each group claims to have God’s true revelation to mankind. However, all three are clearly not from God because they all contradict His word as given to us in the Hebrew bible.

How can we be so sure that the Torah is from God? And that the gt, Koran, and book of Mormon are not? Because God appeared to the ENTIRE JEWISH NATION (about 2-3 million people) when He gave the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai (Dt 5:19). Judaism is the ONLY religion in the entire world that was started by a national revelation from God. Only God, speaking to an entire nation could reveal a true religion. And once God speaks, He doesn’t “change His mind,” or revise the truths He proclaimed as absolute and eternal.

All other religions, including Christianity, are man-made. They started when some person claimed to have received a personal revelation from G-d. (In the case of Christianity, this person was Paul, not Jesus.) This person starts spreading his new version of the truth, whether through charisma or “miracles”, and he gradually develops a group of followers, who tell even more people, etc. Followers of these other religions often try to convince Jews that their new way is actually God’s true final revelation to mankind. They are certain that they are right, and that the Jews are wrong. They get quite upset with the stubborn Jews who fail to see the “truth”. For this reason both the gt and koran are very antisemitic books which portray the Jews as spiritually blind.

With the single exception of Judaism, the whole foundation of the other major world religions rests on a single individual. This person claims to be telling the truth, but how can we be sure when there are so many conflicting religions out there? Well, God hasn't again appeared in front of an entire nation in order to validate ANY of those other religions. God explicitly commands us NOT to follow any other religion (Dt 6:12-15, 13:1-12, Ps 81:8-9), even if the “prophet” of this new faith produces a miracle (Dt 13:2-4). Instead, we are commanded to follow God’s Torah forever (Ecc. 13:14, Dt 2:4, 29:28, Is 40:18, Ps 111:7-8, Ex 31:16, Num 15:23), even into and including the messianic age (Ezek 11:19-20, 37:24, 44:9, Zach 14:16). The bible never says that the Torah is only temporary.

The fervent faithful of many other religions often talk about miraculous events and wonderful personal experiences that prove the validity of their faith. However, believers of all religions make such claims, and they can’t all be right. The fact is that these experiences don’t prove anything:

www.outreachjudaism.org/experience

And if the events at Sinai were just an elaborate hoax by Moses, how come no one else has ever been able to repeat it? That would be a great way to convince people that your religion was true. These ideas are discussed in more detail here:
Did God Speak at Sinai?

Historical Verification of the Torah

[BluffTHIS!]

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With the single exception of Judaism, the whole foundation of the other major world religions rests on a single individual. This person claims to be telling the truth, but how can we be sure when there are so many conflicting religions out there?

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Is that so? Surely an impartial reader of the hebrew bible would think that Judaism depends to a large degree on Moses and the law given to him by God. Or was there some eyewitness coroboration of Moses' receiving that law that I am not aware of? Otherwise how can we be sure Moses didn't just make up the story of the burning bush, make up the 10 commandments and inscribe them himself? Please don't think "the bible says so" is an appropriate response to this question, since you need to address yourself to non-christians/non-jews as well.