Where do I get away from this?

Insty · #1 07-18-2005, 02:10 PM

Second hand of the tournament.
I was probably a little too agressive here. Is there a point where I should get away from this?

Party Poker $20+2 No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

SB (t785)
BB (t800)
UTG (t645)
UTG+1 (t980)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
Hero (t800)
Button (t790)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, SB calls t140, 1 fold, MP2 calls t135.

Flop: (t462.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t175, SB folds, MP2 calls t175.

Turn: (t812.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero pushes all-In t475, MP2 calls all-In t475

River: (t812.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t812.50

adanthar · #2 07-18-2005, 02:13 PM

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Is there a point where I should get away from this?

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Hero (t800)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150

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You could raise less than 20% of your stack here

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1 fold, SB calls t140, 1 fold, MP2 calls t135.

Flop: (t462.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t175

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You could refrain from betting (a weak bet no less) into 2 people on a flop that missed you here

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, SB folds, MP2 calls t175.

Turn: (t812.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero pushes all-In t475

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You could stop bluffing with A high here

morgan180 · #3 07-18-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there a point where I should get away from this?

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[ QUOTE ]
Hero (t800)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150

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You could raise less than 20% of your stack here

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1 fold, SB calls t140, 1 fold, MP2 calls t135.

Flop: (t462.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t175

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You could refrain from betting (a weak bet no less) into 2 people on a flop that missed you here

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, SB folds, MP2 calls t175.

Turn: (t812.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero pushes all-In t475

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You could stop bluffing with A high here

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Ixnert · #4 07-18-2005, 02:24 PM

As Adanthar said, the preflop bet is way too big for level 1. Try 75, you're not narrowing things much (any) more with a 150 bet.

After that, your continuation on the flop isn't as big (or, alternately, is just as big but is a larger fraction of the pot). But once you get called on the flop, you need to stop throwing money at the pot. There are no discernable draws out there (this is a 22, so I suppose you might see A2, but I doubt it), so you've got to assume that they hit something.

Check behind on the turn, fold to anything but a tiny bet on the river unless you hit it.

Insty · #5 07-19-2005, 08:15 AM

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As Adanthar said, the preflop bet is way too big for level 1. Try 75, you're not narrowing things much (any) more with a 150 bet.

After that, your continuation on the flop isn't as big (or, alternately, is just as big but is a larger fraction of the pot). But once you get called on the flop, you need to stop throwing money at the pot. There are no discernable draws out there (this is a 22, so I suppose you might see A2, but I doubt it), so you've got to assume that they hit something.

Check behind on the turn, fold to anything but a tiny bet on the river unless you hit it.

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This all sounds sensible in the cold light of day.

My preflop raise was definitely too big, and I think this married me to the pot. If I'd put in a smaller raise I could have gotten away from it.

For anyone who was theorising about what the villain had here, the monkey had the monster trapping hand 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] With which he called a huge preflop raise, and called down for all his stack with a pair of 4's.

I guess it was soooooted.

45suited · #6 07-19-2005, 08:20 AM

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For anyone who was theorising about what the villain had here, the monkey had the monster trapping hand 7, 4 With which he called a huge preflop raise, and called down for all his stack with a pair of 4's.

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That's what I keep saying about the donkeys at the lower buy-ins. Don't be surprised when they do call you down with their low to mid PP or if they pair up with any piece of the flop. These players get a huge charge out of making a "great read" by putting you on AK and calling down. Yet people continue to bluff these donkeys at the low buy-ins rather than betting for value against them when they have made hands. I don't get it.

Hands like this (which you see all the time at 22s and below) also make me wonder why everyone falls in love with AK, but so many people are afraid to raise in EP with JJ. If your opponents will call you down with a wide range of hands, wouldn't you rather have JJ? Especially since even the donkeys will shut down once the A hits?

grandgnu · #7 07-19-2005, 08:43 AM

You have position, I'd raise to between 75-100 at that point, no one folds for 50.

If it's checked to you on the flop at that point, I'd fire out 1/2 to 3/4 of the current pot. If I get called, I'll likely slow down.

With him calling with 7/4 sooted out of position, you know he's a donk, especially going all-in against you. He doesn't read you for A/K at all, he just sees "wow, I hit my 4, I've got a pair, I ain't folding now!"

This is how many of them think, which can be great for you. I limped with A/J of diamonds from EP early in a tourney. Bunch of limpers and the flop is 9/10/A with two hearts. I fire out a 70 bet and get called by two players, some donk with 4/5 of hearts pushes all-in for 800. I call him and everyone folds, my Aces hold up and I become chip leader with 1800.

bubble time is always fun, had guys laying down to my all-in to 810 chips when they already had 600 in the big blind, hilarious!

45suited · #8 07-19-2005, 08:52 AM

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You have position, I'd raise to between 75-100 at that point, no one folds for 50.

If it's checked to you on the flop at that point, I'd fire out 1/2 to 3/4 of the current pot. If I get called, I'll likely slow down.

With him calling with 7/4 sooted out of position, you know he's a donk, especially going all-in against you. He doesn't read you for A/K at all, he just sees "wow, I hit my 4, I've got a pair, I ain't folding now!"

This is how many of them think, which can be great for you.

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Does it surprise you to run into donks at this level? This is what you should expect. So, value bet your made hands as opposed to bluffing with ace high. (No, I'm not calling AK strictly a drawing hand, but it has much more value with high blinds than with low blinds.) Your line, raising to 75-100, continuation betting with 1/2 to 3/4 pot flop bet, is not necessarily bad in general, but why do this against donks? So often, it just amounts to chip spewing, especially if you try this against more than one opponent. If their play is this bad here, imagine what you can do if you get to the bubble with FE. Or if you get a made hand and can value bet against them. I just don't like making big pots and bluffing bad players with ace high. It's so unnecessary.

sahala · #9 07-18-2005, 02:30 PM

If he called 175 on the flop it's hard to imagine he'd fold it to what is essentially a blank on the turn. He probably has KQ AQ QJ. The preflop raise seems a little high at 10x the BB.

45suited · #10 07-18-2005, 02:35 PM

I am not calling you a losing player, but I've often thought about this: Would the average losing player on the lower levels see their ROI increase if they never played any hand other than PPs on level 1?

IMO, spewing chips with AK and AQ on level by misplaying them causes more harm than just folding them pre-flop for a large number of players on the 11s.

Not recommending this (primarily because everyone should be trying to improve) but I don't think the idea can be dismissed out of hand either.