Interesting floor decision at Bay 101 last night

[Tapin]

So I was playing 3/6 at Bay 101 last night, and the following situation came up.

One player bets all the way to the river, the only other person in the hand raises and calls the reraise. First player turns over J4o for two pair, second player turns over a red T8. Dealer calls the second hand as a flush (there were three diamonds on the board), first player says "I've got two pair", and the pot is pushed to the second player.

As the next hand is being dealt, a person who just showed up at the table and hasn't yet bought in says "Wait a minute, that wasn't a flush, he had ten of hearts, eight of diamonds. [The second player] only had a lower two pair." The dealer corrects her, "He had a flush."

The conversation continues throughout the next hand, and finally the floor is called with the turn just having been dealt. By now, the J4o hand is convinced he won the hand, and convinced he protested before the pot was pushed.

A five minute conversation ensues. No cards are played during this time. Finally, the floorman goes to talk to "his boss" to see if they're even allowed to check the cameras since the next hand has been dealt. Play continues.

Two hands later, floorman's boss comes out to talk to the table. Another five minute conversation ensues. Again, no cards during this time. They decide to review the tape, and confiscate the approximate size of the pot from the player who may or may not have had the flush while they're investgating.

About five minutes later, bossman comes back out and says, "First of all, where's the girl that started this?" He means the person who had just sat down; she had since moved to another table (again, before buying in at this table). He then explains that it appears that the second player might have had a flush, and regardless the first player wasn't protesting loud enough or fast enough, so the second player gets his money back. This of course takes another minute or two to resolve, and no cards are played during this time.

I was merely an observer to all this, who was getting mildly steamed about the number of hands we were(n't) playing while all this went down.

But my question is (raised at the time with the table, but not with the floor): How can they take $40 off the table? What would they have done if the second player had lost his entire stack before all of this nonsense occurred? And why "punish" the second player for the mistake of the dealer?

(The first player said he didn't speak up earlier because he didn't want to get the dealer in trouble; of course, this same dealer earlier in her down managed to forget to take the drop out of a pot that was checked down between two players until after she'd pushed the pot, and made the winner -- coincidentally, the first player from the above story -- pay it back out before the next hand was dealt... nice lady, not the best dealer I've seen)

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Once the shuffle for the next hand is started, any protests from the previous pot are no longer accepted. Simple, problem solved.

al

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Once the shuffle for the next hand is started, any protests from the previous pot are no longer accepted. Simple, problem solved.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

In general this is true. I have seen a few cases wehre an excpetion needs to be made; these generally involve a dealer that doesn't speak English. On one of my first trips to LA I was victimized by a floor refusiong to go back, it was a little different case but still an example of how things can go really wrong when the dealer doesn't speak English.

I was playing a half hold'em half stud tournament in one of the major rooms. IN the stud round I raise the bring-in and the dealer mucks the bring-ins up card as he is calling. So she goes through the muck to find it and tries to give him a card and the player says no and starts going through the muck. I ask the dealer to call the floor no responce. I ask her agin no responce. Finally I yell for the floor and yell at the dealer to just stop. We sit for about a minute waiting for the floor and as the flor approaches the player that had just picked his card out of the muck says "it's ok, deal" and the dealer deals 4th street. The floor arrive and rules since 4th street has been dealt he isnt' going to talk about what happened on third street and leaves.

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
Once the shuffle for the next hand is started, any protests from the previous pot are no longer accepted. Simple, problem solved.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

1-I would never intentionally take a pot that wasn't mine. A few times a dealer started to push me a pot by mistake, and I corrected him/her.

2-If a dealer pushed me a pot, I didn't realize that it wasn't rightfully mine, and the next hand shuffle began, there is no way in hell I'm giving up those chips. Floor or no floor decision, you're not taking those chips from my stack unless you fight me for them.

[4_2_it]

The lesson here is never give up your cards to the muck until you see the winning hand for yourself. Anyone who is bothered by this has never seen a dealer make a mistake or is an idiot. After 8 hrs straight, dealers will make mistakes, which most alert players will quickly correct and laugh off. The floor should never have allowed the situation to get out of control. Once the next hand is dealt, your time to protest is over.

[Tapin]

[ QUOTE ]
The lesson here is never give up your cards to the muck until you see the winning hand for yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the lesson I learned was that as soon as the floor gets involved in what is likely to be an ugly, time-wasting discussion, the most +EV move if you're not directly involved is to ask for a table change.

I forgot to put it in the original post, but I get the impression that the second player didn't have the flush -- he went from saying "I had the flush!" (while backing up the dealer) to "I don't remember what I had" (when two people at the table agreed he had a heart and a diamond) to "How can they penalize me?" (after they took a couple of his stacks). I dunno about anyone else, but if I hit my flush with someone else betting and raising I typically remember it at least for a minute or two.

Of course, I agreed with his last sentiment. Taking money out of his stacks was just ridiculous.

Sounds like the players screwed up by not getting the situation cleared up immediately (one uninvolved player's comment at the table, as the whole thing went down, about why he didn't speak up was "I thought the dealer was kidding about the flush!"); and the floor screwed up by even entertaining the possibility of going to the cameras to check on a hand that was well and truly over before all the hubbub started.

I think matters were compunded because the player who had jacks up was a regular, unlike the player who "won" the hand. I believe the floor might've been more sympathetic to his complaint because he's more likely to be around again. Of course, at the time, he busted within about a half-hour and quickly left.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, the lesson I learned was that as soon as the floor gets involved in what is likely to be an ugly, time-wasting discussion, the most +EV move if you're not directly involved is to ask for a table change.


[/ QUOTE ]

touche'

At this casino it sounds like it would be +EV to announce you have a flush every time you have two cards of the same color [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[autobet]

an agrument for the four color deck

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
an agrument for the four color deck

[/ QUOTE ]
A better arguement for players paying attention.

[captswifty]

[ QUOTE ]
They decide to review the tape, and confiscate the approximate size of the pot from the player who may or may not have had the flush while they're investgating.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really uncommon for the floor to hold the amount of money in the pot until they can figure out who it belongs to. From Robert's Rules of Poker:

Section 2 - House Policies

7. To keep the action moving, it is possible that a game may be asked to continue even though a decision is delayed for a short period. The delay could be needed to check the overhead camera tape, get the shift supervisor to give the ruling, or some other good reason. In such circumstances, a pot or portion thereof may be impounded by the house while the decision is pending.