Dealing with being a loser

[D.J.]

This should probably be on the psych forum, but I particularly wanted to hear from the people that mainly post here. Anyway, as I was driving home today from my 10th consecutive loss in a row, I was thinking back on my recent mis-fortune or misplay whatever fits, and I've had some pretty big losing nights, regularly losing whatever I had in my pockets, which is usually quite a bit. I was thinking about the fact that I simply can not take a loss. I'm to the point where I definitely know how to win, but do not know how to lose. I don't know if it's just the fact that I'm a very competitive person, but I just can't stand losing at anything that I do, and that really poses a problem when I'm stuck a couple of racks and refuse to accept it, instead I dig a bigger hole for myself to get out of. I know looking into the future that I will have losing nights, but when one of those nights come up, I tend to lose in one night what I've played my ass off for a week, b/c I can't just take the loss. My question to all of you expert minds and logical thinkers is what do you do to prevent the problem that I have? Do you guys have a loss limit? Do you only bring a certain amount of money to the cardroom to safeguard yourself? Or do some of you share my problem and refuse to lose until it's all gone? I'd really like to hear what others have to say about this. In the meantime, I'll be taking another break from the cardrooms, and getting ready for spring training b/c poker does not seem to be serving my best interest right now or my bank account's best interest anyway. Thanks for all responses.

-D.J.

[Sooga]

Hey D.J.

I only met you briefly outside of HG, and I certainly don't know you, but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents' worth. If money is becoming the major issue for you, there is certainly no shame in moving down in limits, especially if you're in it in large part for the thrill of victory. I remember last year I was playing only 4/8, and I tried 9/18 for a few sessions (not a big limit to most of you, but big to me), and I didn't do very well, and I lost more than I was comfortable with, so I just went back to 4/8, and I've stayed there since. My friends encourage me to move up, and I suppose will eventually, but right now I'm comfortable with both my losses and my wins at 4/8. I know it's hard to stay off poker for any period of time, so I'm not even gonna suggest that, but try playing at a lower limit for a few weeks, and get your confidence back. I'm sure you know by now that you definitely don't want to be playing with the proverbial 'rent money' on the line.

[Billy LTL]

Do you guys have a loss limit?

Once I recognize having made two stupid mistakes I'm out of there, even if I'm ahead. You'd be surprised how disciplined you'll feel by doing that.

Do you only bring a certain amount of money to the cardroom to safeguard yourself?

I always bring lots of cash, more than I'll reasonably need in case a bigger, better game starts up. But I'll often play in the 30 or the 50 game even when they're spreading the 100.

but I just can't stand losing at anything that I do, and that really poses a problem when I'm stuck a couple of racks and refuse to accept it, instead I dig a bigger hole for myself to get out of

It's very good that you recognize what seems to be a big weakness in your game. I would normally say "Now do something about it" but you already have -- by posting here and deciding to take a break.

Out of curiousity, how many big bets has your bankroll increased or decreased since you started to keep track?

Best of luck, Billy

[MichaelD]

DJ,

When I find myself in a situation similar to the one you describe, I sit back and re-evaluate my play. While I have not had such an extreme experience as you have, I still have had my share of losing sessions.

In almost every situation where I was losing, I found my game to be lacking. In other words, I personally was not playing winning poker. As the saying goes...

"Winning is an attitude, unfortunately so is losing".

In the past, when my results are not as I feel they should be, I have employed a variety of different techniques to get my game back on track.

1. Dropped down in limit to refine my game
2. Played online in order to get more hands out in shorter periods of time, with my main focus being pre-flop strategy.
3. Played only hands in Group 1 and 2 of the Sklansky rankings for a number of sessions, anywhere from 1-4 sessions depending on how I felt about my game.
4. Take a starting hand tracker to the game and discreetly kept track of the hands I played and then evaluated it later.
5. Made a point of never entering a pot without a raise for an entire session, with the only exception being when I was in the blinds.
6. Posted on this forum a few specific hands I was unsure about.
7. Reviewed my thought process in extreme depth for hands I played during a session.

I have found, in almost all instances, that I was responsible for my losing. Sometimes the reasons were obvious; sometimes they were not so obvious. However, I did find that I was making plays that were definitely not profitable long term.

I now also look at the game with the following approaches.

1. I look at things in terms of betting units only and not dollar amount.

2. I look at the game as one big session.

With this in mind, in answer to your question about setting a loss limit, no I do not. But I do make every effort to ensure I am playing winning poker with a winning attitude. If I find myself tired, on tilt, inattentive, hungry, pissed off, etc., then I get up and leave immediately. If I am feel I am still capable of playing my A game, then I stay. As long as I am playing my A game, my next hour of poker is my next hour, whether it happens now or a month from now.

The one exception I will make, is if I have had a few losing sessions in a row, and I do get up a decent amount, I will on rare occasion take the win for purely psychological reasons. While I still may be playing my A game, after experiencing a week or so of losing, I personally feel that regaining some self-confidence by locking up a win can be a good thing and help me approach upcoming future sessions with a better attitude. I do not do this very often but on occasion I have found it to help my confidence immensely and assist me in getting back on track.

On a side note, I made a post in August of 2001 titled "The Myth of Running Bad". You can find it in the archives. It basically describes what I have said here in a bit more detail.

Take some time and review your game and I am confident you will get things turned around. Good luck and I hope this helps.


Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[Soh]

Mike D

With all the respect to you, there's something that I don't understand the way you think. Please tell me, so that I can become a better player.

*Correct me if I'm wrong, but by reading your post, it sounds like you can win almost all the sessions, if you play excellent.

"In almost every situation where I was losing, I found my game to be lacking."
"I have found, in almost all instances, that I was responsible for my losing."

Your play can contribute to your loss, but sometimes no matter waht, you lose. I know you know this, yet the post sounds like you're the main reason for your loss, not the unlucky cards.

*"If I find myself tired, on tilt, inattentive, hungry, pissed off, etc., then I get up and leave immediately. If I am feel I am still capable of playing my A game, then I stay. As long as I am playing my A game, my next hour of poker is my next hour, whether it happens now or a month from now."
"I look at the game as one big session."

This is a great attitude (if you have it.)

Soh

[MichaelD]

Soh,

Forgive me for not clarifying my post. I was responding to DJ's specific question which I took as meaning multiple consecutive losing sessions rather than a single losing session. Short term luck definitely plays a part in everyone's game and no matter how well one plays, they can never overcome this factor completely in regards to winning every session. But, regardless of results, one can still strive to play their best every session.

What I was specifically referring to was when I had 3 or more consecutive losing sessions or a high percentage of losing sessions over my last 10 or so, I have found that it is usually, at least in part, because of the way I have been playing. I have found I very rarely lose 4 or 5 consecutive sessions if I am playing my A game or that I lose 4 out of 5 if I am playing my A game. I do not pretend to be a math wizzard or have percentages to back these figures up, but I am basing it purely on my own results and observations of those specific periods of play.

I do believe one can still play their A game and have an extended losing streak, although I am more inclined to look for and believe there are leaks in my game before I consider the possibility I am getting unlucky. While I may very well be getting unlucky, I am more inclined to look in the mirror and point the finger at my own play rather than at bad luck. I consider this taking responsibility for my own luck and my own results.

In regards to your observation about my statement...

* "If I find myself tired, on tilt, inattentive, hungry, pissed off, etc., then I get up and leave immediately. If I am feel I am still capable of playing my A game, then I stay. As long as I am playing my A game, my next hour of poker is my next hour, whether it happens now or a month from now." "I look at the game as one big session."

You then said...

"This is a great attitude (if you have it.)"



* Thank You - I also believe this is a great attitude.

* I also believe that I do in fact have it a majority of the time I play.

* Unfortunately, I must be the first to admit that I do break my own rules and I do not always follow my own advice.

* However, for the most part, I do make every effort to follow my own advice and when I do not, I make a note of it and attempt to not make the same mistakes again.

Ok Soh - hope this helps clear up any confusion.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi DJ:

Here's an essay from [Poker Essays, Volume II[/i] that you might find helpful.

Best wishes,
Mason

Running Bad and What To Do About It

Because there is a great deal of short-term luck in poker we all run bad at one time or another, and it is mathematically possible to run bad (or good) for longer periods of time than seems reasonable. However, when running bad, there are a few actions that you can take which I have found helpful.

Concept No. 1: Reexamine your basic game plan. It is true you may be running bad because of a statistical deviation, but you also may be running bad simply because you are playing losing poker. You should have a basic strategy that (1) will win and (2) you can always fall back on whenever you are in trouble or not sure if your judgment is correct. (Some of us call this “automatic pilot.” A few of us have even written it down.) For those of you who don’t have a winning basic strategy or are not sure any more what it is, there are some excellent books available which should solve your problem.

Concept No. 2: Understand that you are now a target. This is extremely important and works against you in two very closely related ways. First, your opponents are no longer afraid of you. This means they will “play back” when you least expect it and will do their experimenting against you. Second, since everyone else is beating you, each individual opponent will also try and do the same. This means they will take shots against you when you least expect it, and you will be unable to defend against these shots. These ideas are more specifically defined in the concepts below.

Concept No. 3: Play tighter than normal. Since opponents who would normally be predictable are no longer playing that way because they have lost their fear of you, it becomes imperative to bemore selective regarding what hands you play. (These opponents may become aggressive against you, and only you, meaning that they have become — temporarily at least — tough opponents.) For example, someone who virtually never bluffs is more likely to decide that this is the time. With a weak hand, you still can’t call. But a whole pot, which normally would be yours, is occasionally stolen from you.

Concept No. 4: Make less marginal bets and raises. Suppose you raise an opener who holds a small three-of-a-kind against your two pair. You would prefer that he meekly call your raise and also meekly check to you on the next round. If you are running bad and their fear of you is lost, the typical player is much more likely to reraise and then lead into you. This means that some hands that you would normally play for a call or perhaps even a raise should now be thrown away.

Concept No. 5: Bluff less. Two things go wrong when you now try to bluff. First, since they have lost their fear of you, your opponents simply call more. This means that some profitable bluffing situations will disappear. Second, and even more dangerous, is that some players are now more likely to bluff back with a raise. Even though the results may be the same as if they had just called, when other players see you fold in this spot, they will be more likely to try the same play. In addition, your folding encourages your opponents to play aggressively, and aggressive opponents are in general much harder to beat than timid, predictable opposition.

Concept No. 6: Don’t complain about how badly you are running. This may be the most important idea in this essay. It’s tough getting your hands cracked. But it is even worse to experience these bad beats and encourage your opponents not only to play more aggressively against you but to take shots at you as well. This is exactly what you are doing when you complain. That is, you make a bad situation worse.

Concept No. 7: Pretend that you are winning and buy more chips. Obviously, from the above, it is important to appear to be winning. One of the easiest ways to do this is simply to buy more chips. I believe that most opponents judge how you are running by the number of chips you have. The more they see, the less of a target you become. Also, when you “color up,” even though you have the exact same amount of money, you have fewer chips. I believe it is best to color down. Keep the chip stack large.

[anatta]

That point about not complaining when running bad is so true. There is a very solid player in my regular game, and he is truly the same person whether he is winning or losing. A tough hand, he just quietly says "that's good" and mucks. When he is losing, nobody takes shots at him.

I still dream of playing great poker, but recently I've added the goal of having a great poker playing attitude, true detachment from the results, not just window dressing or some acting like it doesn't matter...but hard earned, heartfelt wisdom that it really doesn't matter.

[J.A.Sucker]

Mason,

I think this is one of the most important and useful essays that you have ever written. There are several key concepts that one needs to internalize to be a long-term winner when things aren't going well, and they are all addressed here. I especially like the one about buying more chips when you sit down. This is a simple thing to do, doesn't change how you play at all, and really can make the difference. I frequently buy 2 or 3 racks of chips to start out with, and build a huge pyramid of them; new players always say "oooh, chip leader! You run goot!" or the like. This is certainly better than being the dude rebuying 2 stacks every other hand - it just looks better and keeps people from running over you. Further, combined with the tighter play that you advocate, people might see you as a guy who is "sitting on his chips" and this may allow you to steal one or two smallish pots, though you should choose these spots carefully.

[PokerPrince]

I've recently taken a few weeks off from playing as I too experienced a wave of frozen sessions. I honestly feel your pain and know the mental anguish caused by a nasty spell of sessions.
I definately agree with what Mason wrote about keeping it to yourself at the table. There was a time when I used to wear my expressions of sorrow on my face and an aura of loserness surrounded me. Those plays seem to just feed off that which can add to the level of frustration.
As far as loss limit goes I have a personal plan that I have used for quite some time. I come to the table and buy in for 50BB's. If I'm getting lacerated and am low on chips there is a chance that I might buy in again BUT ONLY if I'm mentally stable and in the right frame of mind to play my best game. Of course the game has to be a very good one as well or I would certainly just book the loss and leave. If I go through most of my initial 50BB and am feeling tiltolicious and out of patience, I simply cash out for the remainder of my chips and call it a night. This strategy has probably saved me A LOT of money that might have been steamed away.
Taking a little time off is very healthy for a poker player, especially when on a downward spiral like yours. Try to, if possible, take poker right out of your mind for about a week. Have some fun doing the other things you enjoy in life. This will help to clear your mind of negativity and after a short time you'll be back to play with a rekindled love for the game. I truly hope some of this advise helps you and I wish you well.

PokerPrince