PLO8 $400 drawing hand

[emptyshell]

Should I reraise this on the flop, turn?

$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
v2 ( $666 ), folder1 ( $346.77 ), folder6 ( $397.5 ),
v1 ( $593.49 ), Hero ( $481.3 ),
folder4 ( $386 ), folder5 ( $509.5 ), folder3 ( $248.5 ),
folder2 ( $386 )

Dealt to Hero [ 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]

Hero posts small blind [$2].
v1 posts big blind [$4].
folder5 folds, v2 calls [$4], folder1 calls [$4],
folder3 folds, folder6 folds, folder2 folds,
folder4 folds, Hero calls [$2], v1 checks

FLOP: (15.20) [ 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
Hero bets [$15.2], v1 raises [$60.8],
v2 calls [$60.8], folder1 folds, Hero calls [$45.6]

TURN: (195.40) [ 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Hero checks, v1 bets [$195.4],
v2 calls [$195.4], Hero calls [$195.4]

Results in white below:
<font color="#FFFFFF">


RIVER: (781.60) [ Ts ]
Hero checks, v1 checks,
v2 checks

Hero shows [ 3d, 8h, Ah, Kc ] a pair of tens.
v1 shows [ 8c, 6c, 9h, 4s ] a straight, seven to jack.
v2 shows [ 4d, Tc, As, Ks ] a flush, ace high.

v2 wins $781.6 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
There was no qualifying low hand.

</font>

[gergery]

it depends but no i would not have on this hand

[mshalen]

Why would you reraise on the flop? Instead of asking should I why don't you share your thinking for raising or calling then we can all discuss and learn. You have been playing with the other players so tell us how they play and react to raises on flops like this. You have nice draws but nothing close to a made/nut/seminut hand.

[emptyshell]

I was looking for an unbiased reaction first before presenting my reasoning.

A few reasons I should have raised:

- As it turned out I was the favorite on both the flop and turn and with two others in, I was getting very good odds.

- With all the action on the flop and the fact that I have the Ah, it becomes less likely someone is in there with A2. So, my backdoor low may be good. On the other hand, I couldn't stand any betting if the low hit; might be better to be committed already.

- After my flush hits, I wouldn't likely get action.

- There's some chance that neither player has the current nuts and won't play for their whole stack. I agree, though, that this is a small chance.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
I was looking for an unbiased reaction first before presenting my reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop raise was dumb, put the heavy action in after your make your hand, calling the turn bet was stupid as you could have been up against A2, making your low worthless, as it is you have 7 scooping flush outs, and 3 scooping broadway outs. You don't have odds to call a pot bet on the turn with a ten out draw.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop raise was dumb,

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop bet was reasonable, but not a preferred choice. With 2 high cards plus the A of the flush suit and having the straight cards of 89 being unlikely to be played it's reasonably likely your bet can win outright. It's a semi-bluff. But not a great spot since you need to bluff thru 3 opponents. Still, i might make this play at the right table or against the right opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
put the heavy action in after your make your hand,

[/ QUOTE ]

No, put the heavy action in when you are an equity favorite. You can modify that based on how your opponents play, but that is your goal. Against good players waiting til you make your hand is too late as they won't pay you off.

[ QUOTE ]
you could have been up against A2, making your low worthless, as it is you have 7 scooping flush outs, and 3 scooping broadway outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry about what you could be up against.

Put your opponents on a range of hands, weight the relative likelyhood of each type of hand within the range, figure your equity against those hands, and calculate your pot odds to make your decision.

[ QUOTE ]
calling the turn bet was stupid

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the turn bet was correct and EV+. You must call $195 into a $585 pot. Therefore you must have 25% equity to make your call correct, or said another way you need 10 scoop outs.

Even if your worse fears are realized and 1 opponent has the straight and the other has both the A2 low AND splits your Q outs then you still have equity to call.

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 36 enumerated boards containing Js 6s Th 7h
Kc 3d Ah 8h 0.264
4s 8c 6c 9h 0.375
As Ks Tc 2d 0.361

Against their actual hands, you were favored over either of them on the turn

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 36 enumerated boards containing Js 6s Th 7h
Kc 3d Ah 8h 0.389
4s 8c 6c 9h 0.375
As Ks Tc 4d 0.236

Why can't a good opponent being betting here with AKQ9 suited to the K? Why can't he have A29Q suited to the Q?
Why couldn't they both have 89xx?

--Greg

[Wintermute]

Not having yet looked at the results, I don't like it. You need to catch a 2 for low &amp; only draw for high is the flush or Q... still not enough IMO. I think the biggest problem is betting out on the flop--I prefer a check-call and fold or check-call on the turn depending on circumstances.

Yeah--so I see your low was actually live... still I think a fold is definitely the right play on the turn, and probably the flop also.

[miami32]

You should not have bet on the flop. You are taking yourself out of the hand. Your hand is marginal at best and I will tell you why. You have 4 hearts that give you a lock-2,9,10, and the queen. Plus the 3 other queens for broadway. All else either pair the board or add another low card which strongly devalues your hand. If two more low cards come that are not dueces you must fold. Where do you consider yourself the favorite? When you found out what hands where against you then you were but before that you could not possibly have known you were the favorite. Your prospects were not as good as you thought. Plus when you bet the flop the raise took away the odds you might have had to call on the flop. You should have considered folding unless you thought you could have made them fold on a later street which is not likely considering that villian 2 called the raise cold.

I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this and I would like debate if I'm wrong. I'm mainly a no limit holdem player but I have been playing a lot of omaha/8 lately and doing very well.

Robert

[emptyshell]

That's a good analysis, so I don't have much to debate. I think the bet on the flop wasn't bad since I might have been able to take control of the hand and get the pot even without hitting. I probably should have dumped it to the raise, though, despite being a significant favorite in hindsight. Calling is kind of bad since, even if I hit, the likelihood of getting paid off is pretty low. In my opinion, at that point, it was either a raise or fold situation.

[fuzzbox]

If you are not prepared to get all in on this flop (and I wouldnt be), then dont lead out, because if some1 raises, you now have a big pot out of position and only a draw (albeit a good one).