Donkbet on a Passive Table

arsixsixwy · #1 07-03-2005, 07:25 PM

This table was fairly tight and passive -- I'd seen two or three fold-arounds to the big blind in the 30 hands or so since I sat down. No particular reads on the opponents in question, though. Thanks for any comments!

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero ...

crownjules · #2 07-03-2005, 07:35 PM

With no reads, I'd probably fold the turn. MP1 is indicating he has the K and if that's the case, you're drawing dead.

nomadtla · #3 07-03-2005, 07:52 PM

I don't know that I'd call this a donkbet, you were the only one who showed aggression preflop, and since they both checked that flop to you, it's not terribly hard to believe you may have the best hand right then. On a tight table I probably wouldn't fight for a pot this size on the turn I'd let it go. But I don't think the flop bet was a bad line.

McGahee · #4 07-03-2005, 09:48 PM

I think it's close between calling & raising. If the board were rainbow, I'd like to call and let them bet the river since an A would be the only card I wouldn't want to see on the river. With the bi-2-toned board, I'd be tempted to raise.

Oh yeah - FYI - you're very rarely up against a K here.

@bsolute_luck · #5 07-03-2005, 09:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah - FYI - you're very rarely up against a K here.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually against a thinking opponent, you are very much likely up against a K here.

NateDog · #6 07-03-2005, 09:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

actually against a thinking opponent, you are very much likely up against a K here.

[/ QUOTE ]

McGahee · #7 07-03-2005, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah - FYI - you're very rarely up against a K here.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually against a thinking opponent, you are very much likely up against a K here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to edit to say "unless he's a 2+2er". I'd lead out w/ a K here for obvious reasons.
But you know - our read is "passive" - so I doubt he has it.
And yes I realize the irony of what I'm saying, and no it's not contradictory.

@bsolute_luck · #8 07-03-2005, 10:08 PM

wouldn't the passivity of our opponent only lead us to further suspect he has the K here? i wouldn't think a passive opponent would lead into a preflop and flop bettor with a flush draw would you?

McGahee · #9 07-03-2005, 10:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't the passivity of our opponent only lead us to further suspect he has the K here? i wouldn't think a passive opponent would lead into a preflop and flop bettor with a flush draw would you?

[/ QUOTE ]

One would think, but the thousands of hands I've played have told me otherwise. It's one of those things I can't really explain logically, but...
I remember when I was a passive newb I'd C/R a K here and bet with a J to "find out where I'm at".
I think it's more likely that MP3 has a flush draw.
MP1 usually just has a J - although if he's tight - there aren't many worse J's he can have so raising here may not be such a great idea afterall.

I may also be excessively associating passive with "idiot" and aggressive with "thinking player". Perhaps there is such a thing as a passive thinking player, and I would suppose MP1 would have the K here more often 3-handed than he does HU. HU he hardly ever has it.

As an example this happened this morning against a passive villian...Does it look to you like he has a 10?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero

arsixsixwy · #10 07-03-2005, 11:19 PM

My line of thinking was that a passive player might not feel comfortable playing top pair with a dubious kicker (say K9 or KT, maybe even KJ for the really passive ones) against a preflop raiser. With trips, however, and especially with a high card on the board (the jack) suggesting a safer situation should the other guy also have a king with a questionable kicker, much of that insecurity is released and even the most passive will bet out.

Any thoughts?