low limit hold'em

[BBill]

I have a question that has been asked before, but I will ask it again because what I hear and what I see don’t mesh. The question is this: Are low-limit Hold’em games beat-able? I am going answer my own question and say no so I can pose another: What level can a solid, tight aggressive style win consistently at hold’em.
I have been playing seriously (almost daily) for 1 year. 99% of this play has been online and playing at the .50/1.00 – 1 /2 and some 2/4 limits. I have also played hundreds of low buy-in tourneys as well as about 10 live tourneys. I planned on 1 year to learn the basics a the micro-limits, have read many books and read 2+2 and other forums daily and now would like to go up in limits but what I see is not encouraging. I would like to start with 2/4 but it seems to be a battle with the rake and players that just want action and will play any cards. I was watching a 2/4 game a Party last night and 90% of the winning hands I noted at showdown were cards that I don’t play unless I’m in the blinds with no raise. Cards like Jxo 33, A3o, 10-5s, Kxo, Qxo, 95o and the list goes on. Those that played these cards would go from like $50.00 up to $150.00 and back down and back up they just play for action. There was a player I observed that folded most of his cards waiting for decent starters but when he played them one of the other 4 or 5 players with trash hands would stay till they hit on the river. I know this has all been said before, but when I read about people depositing 50.00 and turning it into a 4 figure bankroll I wonder if it is true or just a ploy to get more fish to deposit 50.00 to lose at the low limits? Sorry to say that and I am not directing this statement to anyone in particular. I am down about 200.00 for the year which I’m not complaining about, since poker is a very inexpensive hobby for me at this rate. But I say again, is it really possible to win at 2/4 consistently online or off ?

[Ed Miller]

But I say again, is it really possible to win at 2/4 consistently online or off ?

Yes, it is possible. You seem very focused on starting hands... as if playing the right cards is a through ticket to big bucks. If you do indeed play appropriately preflop, them my guess is that you are too loose postflop. Do you routinely call turn and river raises, not believing that your opponent could play the hand that he is representing? My guess is also that you play too passively postflop... failing to bet and raise on the expensive streets when you have the best hand. Do you routinely check down top pair on the river? Would you consider betting second or even third pair for value on the river against the right opponents? Do you buy lots of small pots in the tight-passive games with flop and turn bets on very little or nothing?

Of course, I have no idea how you play... but these are very common mistakes that 2+2ers who are struggling with the low limits make. Given your results, though, I can virtually assure you that there are significant holes in your game. Please post hands and participate in the discussion on hands others have posted. I have improved immensely in the seven months that I have been participating actively in this forum.

[jonnyv]

You said that you are tight. You need to loosen up your starting hand requirements a bit and play more suited connectors and one gappers along with As And Ks. If the game is loose passive with not many raises than get in there and take some flops. Fold if you don't catch a good draw and don't chase like the idiots do.
I aagree with Dynasty. After playing 6-12 to 15-30 these low limit games are easy. You have to learn to adjust to a loose passive game. Your pocket pairs will not hold up against many opponents making your drawing hands a better play. You are probably not respecting raises post flop with your big pairs and call all the way to the river and are beat by two pair a straight a flush or when the board pairs someone will be holding that card. Your raises preflop do not get people out, but you should still raise because you have the best hand.
Tight agressive play will get the money, but you need to loosen up in low limit. Becuase of the size of the pots you can take more flops because when you hit you will get paid off big. Just add more hands to your starting hands and trow them away if they don't hit. Take the pot odds into consideration also. Make notes on all of the players. Learn to put people on hands and start respecting their raises. Never bluff and play straight forward.

[ZManODS]

I find playing .50/1 to be extremely frustrating. Just like you said, there are like 80% seeing the flop and calling down to the river with nothing, and when you actually do get a good hand you are beat by a freak 58o. Where are you playing? Also you should consider not playing if the table doesnt look attractive to you. If you see a lot of aggression preflop and you just cant handle that type of play, go try to find a softer game.

[Homer]

I've been consistently beating the 2/4 game at Party for the past 5-6 months, to the tune of 1.5 BB/hr. So I would definitely say it can be done.

During this time I've had two 100 BB downswings and a few more 50+ BB downswings, so obviously there can be quite a bit of variance, even for someone who is a winning player.

Out of curiousity, how many hours have you played in the past year? Knowing this will help to more accurately determine how likely it is that you are going through a bad run versus the probability that you need to improve your game.

Good luck...

-- Homer

[Dentist]

Yeah, I'm starting to think the same thing about the games I play in at my B&M.

At hold 'em, there is a $4 rake up to 10% and a $1 stupid jackpot drop.

Sometimes I can get on fire and beat the game up pretty good because I feel I'm better than most players.

However, here's the tables I just can't beat:

- Any table with a maniac. The one guy changes the whole table so much and it is so volatile that I just can't crack the game.
- any table where there is little to NO selectivity to people's starting hands...
- collectively you're an underdog to the field. Even AA only wins something like 1/3 to 40% of the time....

What's funny is that the 6-12 game at my B&M is MUCH tighter and tougher, but I enjoy that game SO much more. No one plays crap like K 2 off or little suited connectors or any Ace.

I can respect when I have A J and flop an Ace and get beat by a better hand like AQ or AK. Or if someone has a nut flush draw (not just any lame flush) or if they flop a solid set.... I am comfortable knowing I'm BEAT.

But last night I was getting beaten on. My top pair rarely held up because I was getting licked on runner-runner flushes, inside straight draws, and the board pairing to give someone a set.....

And I hate that more than anything.

Maybe that's what is holding me back from beating low limit hold 'em.
- the bad beats and the maniacs do alter my state of mind, I've got to be tougher.

But I sure like the predictability and solid play of the 6-12 game.
I like matching wits with people, not spinning the proverbial poker roulette wheel to see who hits the best hand.

That's enough.....

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
- collectively you're an underdog to the field. Even AA only wins something like 1/3 to 40% of the time....

[/ QUOTE ]

this is such hogwash, i wish i never had to see this stat ever again.

AA wins 1/3 of the hands in which it enters the pot with 9 other players and.........NOBODY FOLDS! this is a "no fold'em hold'em" stat misused way too often, because 22 is going to fold when the board is K T 9 rainbow. players fold, gentlemen.

cheers!

[HUSKER'66]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe that's what is holding me back from beating low limit hold 'em.
- the bad beats and the maniacs do alter my state of mind, I've got to be tougher

[/ QUOTE ]

Dentist,

Pick up Alan Schoonmaker's book, "The Psychology of Poker". He has some great insight to what makes a maniac "tick" and how to counter that type of players style. It will also help with your mental attitude and help you see that you can indeed "beat the game" that has this type of player.

Play well. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Husk

[BBill]

I posted the original question “Are low-limit Hold’em games beat-able?” just over a year ago. Here’s an update of my progress since then. First let me say that at this time in my life poker is a hobby that I truly enjoy. I play only in my spare time though so I have not advanced as much as some of you will or have.
After reading the advice in this thread, and re-reading a few of my poker books I decided to learn No-Limit Hold’em and Heads-up. And yes, I found that low-limit games are beat-able.

I spent the next year playing Heads-Up sit-n-gos at various sites mostly stars, dynamite and UB. I've played
about 350+ 5.00, 10.00 and 20.00 tourneys 70% limit and 20% NL. I calculated my win rate overall at about 60 - 65%. I also played and won a Heads-up tournament, placing first out of about 20 players.
Overall I cashed out a few hundred dollars and came to the conclusion that making money playing HU sit-n-go’s is hard work, physically hard work but it is profitable.

Also I started playing NL/PL at Party when they still offered the .10/.25 PL games. Soon after they switched to .25/.50 NL/PL only and I continued to play. I played tight (seeing 15% - 18% of the flop) and really just waited for somebody to make a mistake.
In .25/.50 PL as per Pokertracker records I average about 6bb per hour ($6.00 an hour in Poketracker terms) I think this is about average to slightly below. I also started playing at the gaming club and some other prima sites where poker tracker does not keep track. I’ve done slightly better at these sites.
I’m still averaging about 6.00 an hour playing these games, I dropped some playing the .50/1.00 NL games and went back to the .25/.50.

I will say that playing NL/PL improved my Live limit game considerably. I recently went to Atlantic City where I did very well playing the 2/4 limit at the Tropicana, I also did well at the Borgata 3/6 limit and won a few bucks playing 4/8 limit at the Trop. I also did well at the Mirage 3/6 game a while back.

At this time I am considering getting back into playing online Limit but I’m taking my time and I’m in no rush to move up to the higher stakes. Right now I’m playing in the HULA tournament (2+2 heads up tournament that will take about 10 weeks from onset to completion.)

Bbill

[Styles]

Congratulations! Nice to hear a longterm turnaround and success story!