Winner's anxiety

[JobyWan]

Hey folks,

I'm having a bit of an issue and would love any thoughts or bits of wisdom you might have to offer.

I'm in the process of making poker my main source of income. I feel fine with my game, but have been struggling with a tense and anxious feeling when I win, or just after I've won. I believe it affects my game only minimally as I am fully concentrated when in a hand, but it makes for a very unpleasant and draining existence after a playing session. I typically win every session that I play. I will stick it out to break even or get up sometimes, but I'm very comfortable working my way back and then ahead. It's once I get ahead that I start tightening up. I know that it's important to think of poker as one infinite game, and I actually do fine losing hands, so long as I play well. However I get stressed once I'm ahead and start looking at either my total on the table or my account total. I will start thinking that I'll only lose down to a certain amount and then I'll leave the table. This is almost always an even number. For example..if I start a session with 1500 in my account and then win to 1612..I'll tighten up and be unwilling to lose more than 12 as I don't want to go below 1600 before leaving the table. (which I guess contradicts what I said about it not affecting my game). Then after I quit the table, I am tense and have a 'the bubble is going to burst' feeling. I really feel this will take a psychological toll on me in the long run as my hours of play increase.

How I handle it now is to typically play till I double my buy in, or 45 minutes elapse and then I take a break. When I relax, I start another session. This has been working pretty well. Today I played 3 sessions..NL100 - my first session was 45 minutes and I was up 75 and had the after-game anxiety/crappy feeling. My next session was excellent with great cards and I was up $225 after about 40 minutes and quit - then I was extremely tense and had to go for a walk and called 5 people to talk. My last session, I went down 85 quickly when my aces got cracked. I played 3 hours and finished up 120 and had a feeling of general relaxation and cotentedness at having climbed out of my inital hole - I had no more urge to play for the night and just relaxed with my wife.

I guess I wonder why I feel terrible after I play. I enjoy playing. Perhaps it's just the pressure of expectation.

Thanks for reading,
JobyWan

[Nigel]

No words of wisdom, because I struggle with the same issues, but I think you are on the right track if you try to schedule sessions for yourself - a certain length of time or number of hands to play, and then break. Try to ignore the results for the session, up or down.

Rinse and repeat.

[kyleb]

It's the illusion of "quitting winner." We all go through it from time to time, but it's important to try and focus on what really matters: Your play skill. By playing hours, not results, you will learn to accept the inevitable downswings and short rushes as just fluctuations towards your goal of X BB/100, whatever X may be.

It's really easy to do when your bankroll isn't your main source of income, which is why I imagine most pros and writers tell new players to keep their day job.

[TStoneMBD]

i didnt read the whole post, but my honest reply from what i have read is that you may want to reconsider turning pro if every session you play puts you ahead for the day. this is a clear sign of running very good.

[MuckerFish]

There are a lot of things you mentioned in your post that you really need to address before trying to go pro. I hope you take some of this to heart and do not feel it is unjust criticism...

First the 'I typically win every session that I play' thing. Believe it or not, this is a problem. Either because A) You are delusional, because NO ONE wins every session, or B)your ego has a serious issue with losing. This is a real bad trait for an aspiring pro to have. Somewhere you are likely not being honest with yourself. It seems to me that this statement would insinuate that if you are losing in a session you force yourself to play until you come back. You may feel a need to win every session you play in. This has led many a player to go broke my friend. If you're losing, it can be for a variety of reasons, maybe bad cards, but more likely for some reason you may not be playing your "A" game, you know, a little too loose, maybe not as aggressive, whatever. When you're not playing up to par, for whatever reason it may be, you should quit. Unless you can easily identify the problem, which in the heat of battle you likely cannot do obectivley, you should leave, period. Win or lose, no matter, if you are not at your best, stop. Forcing yourself to "play for the win" when things may not be quite right is a real bad idea. Don't get me wrong, I hate losing, but I accept it as part of the game. You cannot be results oriented like this if you want to be a pro.

Likewise, it sounds to me like you are playing scared when you are winning. Again to me this sounds like your ego has a real problem with losing. This is a major problem. If you are winning, unlike in my last example, maybe something is going really well. Maybe your reads are dead on, your decisions impecable, your competiton blows, whatever. According to your post it sounds to me like this is the time you get nervous and leave. Whoa nelly, you're playing your best and you think it's time to go? All this does is limit your potential win. Big issue if you want to make a living at this amigo. If playing with a win makes you afraid, you inevitably will make bad decisions, not raise when you should, not push small edges hard enough, etc.

All this adds up to me that you play more when you shouldn't and play less when you should, likely because of some issue you have with the concept of losing.

Finally, if you feel such a psychological toll with all this now, I agree it will only get worse for you when you need those wins to pay the rent, etc. I really feel you need to deal with this before you move on.

One final thing, if the idea of losing is really as bad as you seem to make it, stick to limit. All your chips are in play every hand in NL. If you don't want to risk it all wether or not you are winning or losing, then NL ain't the game for you. Maybe the artifical loss restrictions placed by limit poker will make you feel a little more comfortable.

My name is MuckerFish, and I play poker. That by definition makes me a LOSER! (Do ya get it?)

[Jeffage]

[ QUOTE ]
I typically win every session that I play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you are planning to turn pro, you are in for quite a rude awakening. This simply doesn't happen. People who try to win every session they play typically settle for small wins, but will also (at some point) take LARGE losses. It's all one game. Play if the game's good for as long as you feel like it and will play well. Nobody and I mean abso-[censored]-lutely nobody wins every session they play and anyone who says they do is either a liar or hasn't experienced the flipside yet. It will come. It's about longrange expectation not putting a W on your calendar each night before bedtime. Good luck, but go in with your eyes WIDE OPEN.

Jeff

[Al Schoonmaker]

Read "The hit and run follies" or similar title in John Feeney's "Inside the poker mind." You should also read my "When should you quit?" at cardplayer.com.

Your pattern is self-destructive. You can win 85% of the time, but still go broke.

From a win-rate perspective the stay or quit decision should be based ONLY on whether you have a positive or negative expectation.

Regards,

Al

[JobyWan]

Al,

Thanks for the info. I re-read the Hit and Run follies. I agree with it in principle, but feel like it misses my situation a bit.

I don't choose to quit when I get up - my anxiety builds when I'm up and my quitting is a response to my anxiety..not a tactical choice (other than the tactic of relieving my discomfort), thus my post is asking for help in combatting/explaining the stress as opposed to it's costs.

One of my mantras, perhaps inspired by Feeney, is:

There are two oppurtunities to win and lose with every hand: Money and Education. When I think about, or react to, the money won or lost on any given hand, then I am also choosing to lose the education, thus making me potentially not only a loser once, but twice per hand. I have worked with this idea long enough that I am only minimally affected by losing a hand, no matter how bad the beat, and given my extreme oversensitivity to tilting away a grand like the day I did when I was sick, I immediately go into laser robot ABC poker mode until even the hint of tilt subsides, or I quit the game.

I also have a stop gap for losing - one buy-in, thus I no longer fall into the trap of winning small and losing big. I actually did not have this issue when I was a novice. As I've improved my game to become a consistent winner, it's come about and increased.

I agree is it self destructive - which is why I'm searching for a switch in my mental point of view with regards to playing everyday with the expectation of winning.

What I need to learn is how to win - to believe there should be no cap on how much and how often I can win. That there is not justice system that will bring a winner back to even... and that good players can and should win consistently till the end of time. So much research and literature exists for handling losing induced tilt, but barely any touches on effects of winning. Even in this post, we're told that no-one can win every time. Of course the cards may and, probably will, lay down the law at some point, but do pros really not expect to win everytime they sit down? Or at very least expect only to lose by bad beat. Plus, how would a pro feel if he sat down at a $100 NL game on a big on-line site..shouldn't he/she win 99% of the time? Wouldn't they have the table awareness to know where they stand and not get into marginal situations? On-line low limit NL hold em offers so many 'pay off the nuts' situations that getting your money in with anything less than a 75-85% chance of winning just isn't necessary. And thus it should be feasible to win every session unless that 15% chance makes their out 4 or 5 times in a row - and statisically you could go a long time before that happens.

But I think ultimately, you hit on the way forward. I will simply have to teach myself to be as analytical with my emotion as I do with with my play.

Is the game +EV or -EV. Sounds like a post it note in the making.

[Al Schoonmaker]

You wrote: "What I need to learn is how to win - to believe there should be no cap on how much and how often I can win. ... and that good players can and should win consistently till the end of time."

It will NOT happen, and thinking that way sets you up for major disappointments.

You wrote: "but do pros really not expect to win everytime they sit down?"

They know better than to expect to win every time. Most of them expect to win about 67-75% of the time. The ONLY way to win much more frequently is to stay when you are losing and hit and run when you are ahead, a silly way to go.

You wrote: "I also have a stop gap for losing - one buy-in."

I would regard it as too conservative. However, it is much better to take a small loss than to risk going on tilt.

You wrote: "Is the game +EV or -EV. Sounds like a post it note in the making."

I borrowed it from David (along with lots of other ideas).

Regards,

Al

[JobyWan]

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.

A follow up to your replies:

Muckerfish - thanks for your in-depth reply:
Jeffage - this touches on what you wrote as well..

I WAS definately one of those players who won a little many sessions and lost a lot one session. I grinded my way up from $200 buy in to $2400 about 3 months ago. I pulled half out (original buy in + 1000) leaving just under 1200 in. I played sick one day and lost my 1200 down to 100. That loss crushed me and I now adhere to very strict rules before I sit down. I have to be laser sharp and confident or I don't sit down. Thus, I play usually less than 2 hours a day - I'm working on my mental game every day. I believe that loss had a huge affect on the wariness with which I play now, but instead of manifesting itself as stress when I start to lose, it hits me when I win. The major hole in my game was calling on the end when beat..I figure it cost me 3/4 buy-in a session, and luckily, the wariness/awareness created by the loss helped solve that problem.

Jeffage - on the huge loss:

I now also utilize the 'stock market' rule in that many traders will sell a stock when it goes down 5% no matter what. This way they know they'll never lose more than 5% on any venture and have to hope that they'll make 5% many more times than they lose 5%. If I lose one buy-in ($100) then I quit for the session (my plan is the whole day actually). Otherwise I risk subtle tilt, or simply loser's mentality. I would refresh and start again another day.

I figured that the 'winning every session' thing would draw criticism, but I think it's an important part of the scenario, especially in regards to my ego. I feel like I have worked hard on my game with respect to ego and now feel very healthily detached to each hand. I stuck "Just let it go" on a post-it next to my monitor and review it before making a call. I also now freely leave a table if I feel it's not a profitable environment even if some donk sucked out on me for half my stack. I just let it go if it needs to be let go. Given that I had a calling problem, it's tightened me to just the right place.

I have not had to quit a session for being down a buy in yet, but I do not dread the day I do...as I mentioned in my original post, it might actually be a RELIEF to lose that one buy in and get up from the game, thus sticking to my rule.

I just don't get why the stress comes when I am up. Yes, it's clearly costing me optimum play in some respects (leaving a good game, not pushing edges), but I sort of shut down when I get up more than a buy-in. Part of it may be the perceived back and forth swing with on-line play. Maybe the fear of losing. It's actually the worst when I'm up $25 or so. If I've grinded from $100 to $125 by stealing blinds and pushing edges, then I'm extremely protective of my money, suspecting I could lose all that work with one bad call. (perhaps this is also just recognition that I'm at a tougher table). I start to think about leaving the table. If I get a good trapping hand and make 75 or so in one go, then it's less stressful than the $25, but I do start thinking about leaving the table. If I get over $200, then I'm pretty much pushing the leave table button.

But again, yesterday, I got my aces cracked for $85 almost immediately. I topped back up to $100 (keeping in mind that another loss of $15 or more would require I quit for the day). I got a good trapping hand and went up to 175 or so, but was still down for the session, and thus playing relaxed/aggressive poker. I built up to $240 - so I was now up $55 for the session, but I kept on, and was still relaxed. I hit a hand which took me to $337 - now I'm essentially $150 up. A couple bucks over, but once I hit $150 up (a nice even number, for whatever that's worth), I got tight and had to leave the table. After I left though, I was pretty happy and relaxed..which always seems to be the case if I lose before winning.

Thanks again for your time. I'll keep at it and post any epiphanies that occur.

JobyWan