An interesting hand...Positional Struggle Against Tough Player

Jeffage · #1 06-28-2005, 11:14 PM

5-handed 1-2 game online. I'm second to act with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I raise. Next player, a very good, but very (perhaps overly) aggressive player, 3-bets. He is sometimes super-aggro, but very smart and beats the game well. Folded back around to me and I call. Flop comes 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check, good player bets, I raise, he calls. Turn is the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, he bets, I call. River is the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet. How's my line?

Jeff

BigSkiRace · #2 06-29-2005, 12:14 AM

I dont like the turn play

DcifrThs · #3 06-29-2005, 12:17 AM

on that board vs. that player u must bet the turn. call the raise and call it down. if not raised bet river again.

nice bet on the river.

-Barron

adspar · #4 06-29-2005, 01:19 AM

is just calling the turn bet and betting the river better than check-raising the turn?

DcifrThs · #5 06-29-2005, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
is just calling the turn bet and betting the river better than check-raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

you cannot check and allow a free card on the turn.

-Barron

Jeffage · #6 06-29-2005, 07:05 AM

What if you know a bet will go in close to 100% (say 85-90%)of the time whether you're winning or losing? I like your advice in the prev post, but I'm just curious.

Thanks,
Jeff

mperich · #7 06-29-2005, 07:13 AM

If he bluffraises the turn with around the correct frequency, then I don't mind your line with that read. However, I don't think betting is bad in this situation, and I think it is a better default play, because as Dcfr said, you really don't want to give a free card off here. As others have mentioned, I really like the river bet. Overall, I think this is a good line to mix up your play, and make it hard to read your hand.

-Mike

DcifrThs · #8 06-29-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What if you know a bet will go in close to 100% (say 85-90%)of the time whether you're winning or losing? I like your advice in the prev post, but I'm just curious.

Thanks,
Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

that 10-15% he does not get the bet in are horrible because there are 5*4=20 cards that can come T-A. thats basically 1/2 the deck...and only 2*4=8 of them will actually help him. since im virtually positive he pays off w/ Ace high that not only costs you the turn bet, it costs you the river bet those times a K comes and he has AQ and you feel you need to check.

plus you must maintain control of the hand after the checkraise on the flop (which is standard for me and not mixing anything up-i read somebody saying something like that). and, as stated above in a round about way, you guarantee that a bet goes in 100%.

-Barron

adspar · #9 06-29-2005, 07:19 AM

I'm trying to understand why you like the river bet, which is why I ask if a raise on the turn is better. But given that the turn check was a botch, I'm guessing you just ignored a turn salvation suggestion and went right to the river.

Given a hypothetical turn bet, do we fold to a raise? I'm not sure about this one, but I know that betting the turn is important here because 2 overcards or a flush draw are a big chunk of opponent's range. [edit: i see now baron says call down a turn raise, still curious about the next question]

Given the turn play and river bet, do we fold to a river raise? I assume we only bet if we can fold to a raise, otherwise check-call and hope AK doesn't check behind?

mperich · #10 06-29-2005, 07:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to understand why you like the river bet, which is why I ask if a raise on the turn is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if you checkraise the turn you are committed to putting in 3 bets no matter what. Plus if you get 3bet you have to fold and that sucks. The river bet is good because you are ahead fairly often and want to get a bet in on the river here. If you check the river you are giving him way too much positional advantage, as he will only bet hands that beat you usually (unless his hand has absolutely no showdown value, which I doubt).

[ QUOTE ]
Given a hypothetical turn bet, do we fold to a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends on the opponent and the texture of the board. In this particular instance, definately call down a turn raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Given the turn play and river bet, do we fold to a river raise? I assume we only bet if we can fold to a raise, otherwise check-call and hope AK doesn't check behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to a river raise is where this line gets a little trickier, but I usually will call down. We are not just value betting against AK, but against any ace. Whereas AK might not check behind (altho it probably will a majority of the time), every other ace almost certainly will.

-Mike