anyone up for a play along?

mr pink · #1 06-19-2005, 11:25 AM

tough blind steal here against a TAG, his stats are 17/7.2/2 over 1700+ hands - possibly a 2+2er, i dunno for sure though. i still have a hard time in these situations, i think i might have screwed this one up.

how are you guys playing this and why?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero???

my thought at the time was that he would check/raise here with any piece of the board, but i probably should have included any good draw into that as well.

imported_PP123 · #2 06-19-2005, 11:50 AM

Hero calls the flop raise and raise the turn for a free showdown.

Why? BB could play this way with a wide range of hands. Both better hands like a Q or two pair, but also hands you beat like a worse nine or a straight or flush draw. Nevertheless you have a hand you want to take to showdown. By raising the turn you charge him the most when he's on a draw and it cost you the same when you're behind and calls down.

The turn raise is also the last money I put in the pot. If he 3-bets I let it go.

toss · #3 06-19-2005, 11:55 AM

I like your thinking.

pleyya · #4 06-19-2005, 12:10 PM

If you want to go cheaply to showdown three bet flop and ch turn. Fold if op cap + bet turn and you are unimproved. If you want to charge a draw you could three bet fl bet turn ,fold to a raise, ch river.
Save a small bet.

MisterKing · #5 06-19-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to go cheaply to showdown three bet flop and ch turn. Fold if op cap + bet turn and you are unimproved. If you want to charge a draw you could three bet fl bet turn ,fold to a raise, ch river.
Save a small bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line is cheaper for Hero to see a showdown, yes, but it is also cheaper for our opponent. When opponent has a draw, that's problematic, since he's now seeing two cards for the low, low price of one big bet. Raising the turn has the benefit of charging him more when he's drawing, and also facing him with a decision with only one card to go. It also makes the decision process very easy for Hero in that, as PP said above, hero has put his last dollar into the pot with the turn raise. Any other betting from opponent and we're done with the hand.

Now, if Hero was the one with a powerful draw, I'd like your line of 3-betting the frop. This would almost certainly get it checked to you on the turn (assuming villain didn't cap the flop), meaning you could be the one strategically taking the free card. But with second pair good kick, that's just not a play I want to make.

Paxosmotic · #6 06-19-2005, 12:12 PM

I'm probably calling here and raising if the turn is an A, Q, or 9. Calling otherwise. The reason I raise the turn is the opponent is representing a jack by raising the flop, and would have 3-bet preflop with AJ. If an ace drops, I expect to steal this pot enough to make the raise profitable.

einbert · #7 06-19-2005, 01:05 PM

I would usually just call the flop raise, but I will three-bet here sometimes. I wouldn't fold.

mtdoak · #8 06-19-2005, 01:25 PM

Alot of peoples standard blind defense line is C/R the flop. I like the idea of raising the turn for the free showdown, esp if a brick falls.

mr pink · #9 06-19-2005, 02:18 PM

yeah, we're all pretty much on the same page about getting to a showdown cheaply... surely not folding here either.

my plan at the time was to 3-bet the flop, bet the turn and then check behind on the river. i think i like calling the flop and raising the turn for a free sd though. as a question though, which cards are you *not* raising on the turn if that's your plan.

anyway i'm off to a bbq and will be out for a while, but here's the turn.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises - you motherfucker, Hero ????

this was a tough decision for me at the time. i could have as many as 9 outs, or possibly drawing to a chop.

PokerSparky · #10 06-19-2005, 02:34 PM

Your Q and 9 outs can't be worth much. I'd value them at one a piece.

Your T outs are probably good, but could be getting a chop, so lets say they're worth 3 outs. (I have no idea how to properly discount an out for a chop. Someone elighten me.)

So you have 5 outs. You're getting over 8:1 on a call here, so I think I call and fold the river UI.