weak with KK?

anisotropy · #1 06-16-2005, 11:16 AM

No hand converter here, but this was on Empire 3/6 last night, towards the end of my session. The villian, immediately on my left, is a little loose, but solid and pretty aggressive (21/8/2). I pick up KK (both black) UTG+1 and raise. Villain makes it 3 and we get one guy (the button, an absolute moron) to call 3 cold. I cap and all come along.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet and am insta-raised by Villain. Button drops and I 3 bet it. He insta-caps. I call, and consider if he has AA or JTs (probably a longshot, but worth considering). QQ is a possibility also, but AKs-AQs are maybe more likely.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

For some stupid reason, perhaps making a lot of second best hands in the session, I decide that he mostly likely has JT and check-call. Should I have check-raised here? Or bet out?

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Now the flush draw comes in and I check again, intending to just call one more. He checks as well.

Now considering that I had seen him playing mostly solid for about 90 minutes, how was my line? I think it was a little bit weak and I missed out on 2 or 3 bets.

brettbrettr · #2 06-16-2005, 11:20 AM

Bet 3-bet the turn. If he caps, I still probably sneak in one more bet or raise on the river. If he's playing JT for 3 bets pre-flop, so be it.

Fat Nicky · #3 06-16-2005, 11:22 AM

Given the villans stats, JT in unlikely since that's not a 3-betting hand for an 8% PFR. My guess is that he either has AK, AA or a smaller set. looks like you definitly missed out on some bets here.

avisco01 · #4 06-16-2005, 11:33 AM

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Given the villans stats, JT in unlikely since that's not a 3-betting hand for an 8% PFR. My guess is that he either has AK, AA or a smaller set. looks like you definitly missed out on some bets here.

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Agreed, he has to have the overpair or QQ given his preflop play. He is probably putting you on AK as well. AQ of hearts is definitely a possibility, as well as KQs, but this is one of those where if he has JT I'm just going to lose a lot of chips, thats all there is to it. Having top set is a rare and beautiful thing, and getting action like this given you flopped the near nuts is a bonus. Even if he has JT, on the turn, you still have outs to beat that hand, improving to quads or a boat obviously. I'm going full steam ahead on the turn, and if a scary hits on the river, an A, heart, or weird card that appears to improve his hand, perhaps I tighten up then, but I'm not giving him a cheap river given I'm probably way ahead here.

pandared · #5 06-16-2005, 11:39 AM

I thought you played it fine, with him capping the flop you gotta suspect j-10, sure he probably has a-k from the looks of things, but I think the checkcall on the turn is pretty standard

when the flush hit on the river, he probably doesn't have it considering how the flop went down, but there's no way he'd fold and you still don't know if you have the best hand, so why bet? a check-call is fine

I think this is standard because you really don't know if you have the best hand, given the board conditions a straight is too likely for you to go crazy with aggression, so I think your play was fine

Fat Nicky · #6 06-16-2005, 11:48 AM

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I thought you played it fine, with him capping the flop you gotta suspect j-10, sure he probably has a-k from the looks of things, but I think the checkcall on the turn is pretty standard

when the flush hit on the river, he probably doesn't have it considering how the flop went down, but there's no way he'd fold and you still don't know if you have the best hand, so why bet? a check-call is fine

I think this is standard because you really don't know if you have the best hand, given the board conditions a straight is too likely for you to go crazy with aggression, so I think your play was fine

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no offense, but this is terrible advice

pandared · #7 06-16-2005, 12:07 PM

Haha you are right Nicky, dunno what I was thinking.

Putting myself in Hero's shoes, definitely would raise on the turn given that it's 3 handed. I was thinking more in terms of a loose 4-5 limper game, sorry about that anisotropy

jskills · #8 06-16-2005, 12:07 PM

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I thought you played it fine, with him capping the flop you gotta suspect j-10, sure he probably has a-k from the looks of things, but I think the checkcall on the turn is pretty standard

when the flush hit on the river, he probably doesn't have it considering how the flop went down, but there's no way he'd fold and you still don't know if you have the best hand, so why bet? a check-call is fine

I think this is standard because you really don't know if you have the best hand, given the board conditions a straight is too likely for you to go crazy with aggression, so I think your play was fine

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no offense, but this is terrible advice

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Yes, quite awful.

pandared · #9 06-16-2005, 11:54 AM

actually looking at it again I like what avisco01 wrote down, a-k and q-q is way more likely than j-10, and with the outs to a boat makes raising the turn very profitable...

I think it is also very read dependent though, with the crazy action preflop and flop, a good player should place you on trips as well, and would slow down a bit if he has just a pair, so a bet on the turn could give you some information as to what he has...

jskills · #10 06-16-2005, 12:09 PM

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I think it is also very read dependent though, with the crazy action preflop and flop, a good player should place you on trips as well, and would slow down a bit if he has just a pair, so a bet on the turn could give you some information as to what he has...

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Reads should not matter when you have top set in this situation. There's nothing to do but get the most money in pot as possible. Villan would never play JT that way preflop and on the flop.