WSOP All-Time Player Rankings

[PokerFink]

Here is my all-time rankings of players in the WOSP, sort of like a pound for pound boxing list. Things to consider:

1) I have only included players that have won either 3+ bracelets, or 2+ bracelets that include a world championship. All other players are excluded for the sake of simplicity.

2) The rankings are based on several criteria, as follows.

*Total bracelets
*Championship Event: Wins and final tables are a huge factor.
*Total finishes in 1st, 2nd, 3rd
*Total Money/cashes

3) The final factor is era. The era that a player played in makes a big difference. Consider that one of Moss's championships was based on a vote, and that he played against much smaller fields.

4) There is no mathematical system, it's just based on the facts and my opinion.

RANK / NAME / WINS (CHAMPIONSHIPS) / YEARS OF WINS

1 Phil Hellmuth Jr. 9 (1) 1989, 1992, 1993, 1993, 1993, 1997, 2001, 2003, 2003
2 Johnny Chan 9 (2) 1985, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1997, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2003
3 Doyle Brunson 9 (2) 1976, 1976, 1977, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1991, 1998, 2003
4 Stu Ungar 5 (3) 1980, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1997
5 Erik Seidel 7 1992, 1993, 1994, 1998, 2001, 2003, 2005
6 Johnny Moss 8 (3) 1970, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1979, 1981, 1988
7 Men "The Master" 6 1992, 1995, 1995, 1996, 2003, 2003
8 Berry Johnston 5 (1) 1983, 1986, 1990, 1995, 2001
9 Billy Baxter 7 1975, 1978, 1982, 1982, 1987, 1993, 2002
10 Jay Heimowitz 6 1975, 1986, 1991, 1994, 2000, 2001
11 Chris Ferguson 5 (1) 2000, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2003
12 T.J. Cloutier 5 1987, 1994, 1994, 1998, 2004
13 Tom McEvoy 4 (1) 1983, 1983, 1986, 1992
14 Huck Seed 4 (1) 1994, 1996, 2000, 2003
15 Bobby Baldwin 4 (1) 1977, 1977, 1978, 1979
16 Hamid Dastmalchi 3 (1) 1986, 1992, 1993
17 Amarillo Slim 4 (1) 1972, 1974, 1985, 1990
18 Scotty Nguyen 4 (1) 1997, 1998, 2001, 2001
19 Ted Forrest 5 1993, 1993, 1993, 2004, 2004
20 Layne Flack 5 1999, 2002, 2002, 2003, 2003
21 Gary Berland 5 1977, 1978, 1978, 1979, 1979
22 Dan Harrington 2 (1) 1995, 1995
23 Mickey Appleman 4 1980, 1992, 1995, 2003
24 Jack Keller 3 (1) 1984, 1984, 1993
25 Puggy Pearson 3 (1) 1973, 1973, 1973
26 Phil Ivy 4 2000, 2002, 2002, 2002
27 Artie Cobb 4 1983, 1987, 1991, 1998
28 Lakewood Louie 4 1978, 1979, 1979, 1980
29 Carlos Mortensen 2 (1) 2001, 2003
30 Sailor Roberts 2 (1) 1974, 1975
31 Jack Strauss 2 (1) 1973, 1982
32 Dewey Tomko 3 1979, 1984, 1984
33 John Bonetti 3 1990, 1993, 1995
34 Allen Cunningham 3 2001, 2002, 2005
35 Don Willians 3 1982, 1985, 1988
36 Eli Balas 3 1992, 1999, 2004
37 David Slansky 3 1982, 1982, 1983
38 John Cernuto 3 1996, 1997, 2002
39 Lyle Berman 3 1989, 1992, 1994
40 Perry Green 3 1976, 1977, 1979
41 Daniel Negreanu 3 1998, 2003, 2004
42 John Juanda 3 1998, 2003, 2003
43 Chau Giang 3 1993, 1998, 2004
44 David Chui 3 1996, 1998, 2000
45 Dr. Max Stern 3 1995, 1997, 1997
46 Eskimo Clark 3 1992, 1999, 2002
47 Hilbert Shirey 3 1987, 1995, 1995
48 Sam Mastrogiannis 3 1979, 1986, 1986
49 Mike Harthcock 3 1984, 1990, 1991

Comments and critiques are welcome. If you feel a player is to high or too low, please give me an argument as to why - I would love to debate it.

(Edited - change Dastmalchi's wins from 4 to 3)

[grass]

you need to put negreanu higher before he gets offend and start challenging you.

[pokers]

yea dan needs to be higher

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
yea dan needs to be higher

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to make an argument as to why?

Besides an excellent 2004, his WSOP career isn't really all that impressive. Only three bracelets, and no championship final tables. And this is coming from someone who has met DN and is a big fan.

[PartySNGer]

I would have Chan first and Stuey second. Chan's win-win-2nd span in the main event is simply unparalleled. Throw in the fact that he's tied for the most bracelets and I would say he's been the top WSOP player of all time. Stuey won 3 MEs, the most of all-time (Moss won 2 and was voted best player in one).

It would be interesting to see how many WSOP events some of the top bracelet holders have participated in.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have Chan first and Stuey second. Chan's win-win-2nd span in the main event is simply unparalleled. Throw in the fact that he's tied for the most bracelets and I would say he's been the top WSOP player of all time. Stuey won 3 MEs, the most of all-time (Moss won 2 and was voted best player in one).

It would be interesting to see how many WSOP events some of the top bracelet holders have participated in.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Hellmuth vs Chan debate is a good one, and I knew someone would bring it up. I think either one can be number one.

Consider that Hellmuth is the WSOP all time leader in cashes, all time leader in final tables (I believe), he shares the record for most wins in a year, and was the all time money leader until Raymer. He also beat Chan in 1989.

Chan's main argument for being over Hellmuth is that he has 2 world championships and a 2nd place (and a 7th), whereas Hellmuth has one world championship and a 5th. It's a very close argument, but I went with Phil.

I can't see Stuey being ahead of the nine-time bracelet winners. He is the most talented player of all time, but this list is not based on talent.

[dogmeat]

Stuey won 3 MEs, the most of all-time (Moss won 2 and was voted best player in one).



The Hellmuth vs Chan debate is a good one, and I knew someone would bring it up. I think either one can be number one.

Consider that Hellmuth is the WSOP all time leader in cashes, all time leader in final tables (I believe), he shares the record for most wins in a year, and was the all time money leader until Raymer. He also beat Chan in 1989.

Chan's main argument for being over Hellmuth is that he has 2 world championships and a 2nd place (and a 7th), whereas Hellmuth has one world championship and a 5th. It's a very close argument, but I went with Phil.

I can't see Stuey being ahead of the nine-time bracelet winners. He is the most talented player of all time, but this list is not based on talent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with much of your list. You have taken another list of winners, in multiple events, and tried to figure out which of those belong at the top. Sorry, but much of it is apples and oranges.

Certainly players like Amarillo Slim were good, but would have to be way down on the list. Moss deserves to be up very high, because the caliber of players at the time (even with smaller fields)was excellent. If you don't think he played tough fields, he even came in 7th place in 1985.........

Hellmuth over Chan? Wow, do I disagree.
Hellmuth over Stu? Wow, do I disagree.

You say this isn't based on talent? How do you know Stu was the best of all time? Because he won the ME three times - and because in total, he played much fewer events than Phil.

Reevaluate and call me in the morning, unless you list is simply who has accumulated the most bracelets and cash.............and if it is, we already know who tops those lists.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with much of your list. You have taken another list of winners, in multiple events, and tried to figure out which of those belong at the top. Sorry, but much of it is apples and oranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bunching all the players together based on their total bracelets (ie the 9's go 1-2-3, then Moss, then Baxter and Seiedel) would be comparing apples and oranges. I have tried to compare everyone together based on the whole body of their WSOP career, which is why certain players are grouped with other players who have more, or less, bracelets. I'm not sure why you don't understand what I did.

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly players like Amarillo Slim were good, but would have to be way down on the list. Moss deserves to be up very high, because the caliber of players at the time (even with smaller fields)was excellent. If you don't think he played tough fields, he even came in 7th place in 1985.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have Amarillo Slim at #20, the lowest for any player that won four braclets and a world championship. I have Moss at #6, which would qualify as very high on the list.

[ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth over Chan? Wow, do I disagree.
Hellmuth over Stu? Wow, do I disagree.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're free to disagree. Give me a good argument, I would love to debate it with you, it's why I made the list.

[ QUOTE ]
You say this isn't based on talent? How do you know Stu was the best of all time? Because he won the ME three times - and because in total, he played much fewer events than Phil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thats why Stuey is the best card player of all time. He was also probably the best gin player of all time. But Phil has had a better CAREER at the WSOP than Stuey.

Consider this. Let's say we have two baseball players. Both play first base in the national league. Both are equal fielders. One player plays for five years, hits 40 home runs per year, drives in 100 runs per year, and bats .310. But after five years, he has a horrible injury and retires. The second baseball player plays for 20 years. He hits 25 home runs per year, drives in 85 runs per year, and hits .290.

The first player is undoubtedly more talented, as he had better numbers every year. But the second player had the better career. Player 2 retires as a member of the 500 HR club and is a borderline hall of famer, while the first player leaves everyone wondering "what could have been." Stuey is the first player. Hellmuth is the second.

Hellmuth, Chan and Doyle have all had CAREERS than Stuey.

I would bring up all the numbers, but you already know them.

Thats my argument. Care to to disagree?

[Yuv]

I think Jesus is the number 1 WSOP player in the first 5 years of the 21st centuary, which should be enough to put him higher.

Jay Heimowitz won his last two bracelts in Senior events, if I'm not mistaken. He shouldn't be that high.

Top 8, IMO, should be Hellmuth, Chan, Stuey, Brunson, Ferguson, Seidel, Men, Johnston.

It's really hard to judge the likes of Moss and Baxter.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Jesus is the number 1 WSOP player in the first 5 years of the 21st centuary, which should be enough to put him higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with him being the best player of the last 5 years, but his overall career is not as impressive as the players above him. Not as many bracelets, not as many top 3 finishes, not as many final tables in the championship.

[ QUOTE ]
Jay Heimowitz won his last two bracelts in Senior events, if I'm not mistaken. He shouldn't be that high.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Only one of his bracelets is a Seniors bracelet. Heimowitz also has a very impressive record in the championship event, making back to back final tables in 80 and 81. He also has 12 top 3 finishes. He is very accomplished, and IMO, has a better overall career than Jesus.

[ QUOTE ]
Top 8, IMO, should be Hellmuth, Chan, Stuey, Brunson, Ferguson, Seidel, Men, Johnston.

It's really hard to judge the likes of Moss and Baxter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on both counts. It is VERY difficult to place Moss. It looks like we have an identical top ten players, we just place them a little differently.