Can't get out of the starting gate (long and l/c)

[wulfheir]

I have been reloading 50 and 100 dollars at stars and party since last october or november. I have been studying this forum, reviewing my hand histories after tourneys, really working on my game. When I read and analyze hands people post, it's usually the same as many others responses.

But I've gone thru 4 or 500 dollars and can't seem to get any nice string of games together. The biggest my BR has hit, is probably $150. Perhaps (I hope) my only major problem has been BR management. The most I've started with at Stars is 50 (to play $5.50 SnG), and 100 at Party (to play $11). I have never gone more than 180 tournaments on one deposit, without busting.

I've been wanting to get additional resources like Harrington on Hold'em and Eastbay's Tools. However, I may have this catch-22 thing going. I feel like I should buy these out of my bankroll, once I turn a profit enough to afford it. After all, Party's $11 are supposed to be crushable in your sleep. But maybe there is enough to learn in HoH and SGA that will turn my ROI from - to +.

Where do I go from here? I enjoy poker, I love the intracacies, I do well at home games. But I can't seem to get out of the starting block, and it's frustrating to go thru the logs and tell myself, "well, I got my money in with the best of it, that's variance.". Tired of telling myself, "You ran into a monster on the bubble, expect it to happen." Tired of telling myself, "You're bust again because you didn't properly bankroll yourself with 30xBuy-in.".

Reading other beginners posts about turning their first $50 into $1000 gives me encouragement that there are other dedicated newbies succeeding, but I can't seem to get out of the gates.

I look at my ROI over 1 particular 180-game period of 1%, and remind myself that my sample size is small, and have read about swings much greater than mine over the same period on this forum.

So, as I step away from real money online poker to rethink things and get a proper initial BR (and purchase some more poker resources); I'm left wondering if I'm simply not a winning player, if I've shot myself in the foot with my inadequate BR, or I'm victim of variance.

Am I the only newb, who has studied and worked on his game as much as me who simply can't get out of the starting gate? If so, I don't see them posting anywhere.

If anyone has any advice to offer as to where I go from here, I'm as open to input as I am about my experience.

[pergesu]

POST HANDS

[mosdef]

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The most I've started with at Stars is 50 (to play $5.50 SnG), and 100 at Party (to play $11).

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your definitely starting with a small bankroll - is it possible that your fear of losing 10 buyins is making you too timid on the bubble? just guessing.

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Reading other beginners posts about turning their first $50 into $1000 gives me encouragement that there are other dedicated newbies succeeding, but I can't seem to get out of the gates.

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don't believe the hype. sure, some people are turning 50 to 1000, BUT all of the people (except you) who turn 50 into zero don't post. there is some serious selection bias in who actually bothers to post their results, so don't think that everyone but you is smoking these things at a 40% ROI and that you're doing something wrong.

anyway, many people will tell you this but you need to post hands to get advice if you are worried about a hole in your game. it's just impossible to harvest useful advice with a general email like this.

regards.

[jcm4ccc]

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I have been reloading 50 and 100. Perhaps (I hope) my only major problem has been BR management . . . tired of telling myself, "You're bust again because you didn't properly bankroll yourself with 30xBuy-in.".

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I'm sorry to break the news to you, but your bankroll management skills have been fine. It doesn't make a difference that you deposit money on multiple occasions. You have been playing the lowest buy-ins possible (except for Party $5 + $1, which you never want to do because of the rake). You've deposited $500 dollars (whether in one shot or four different shots is irrelevant), and you've lost it all playing $5.50 and $11 SnGs. In other words, you've dropped between 60 - 70 buy-ins at the most beatable SnGs that exist.

The harsh reality: you are a losing player. The good news: you've found this site. You can become a winning player if you post hands and listen to the criticism without defensiveness. It's up to you as to whether your ego is strong enough to take it, and whether you are dedicated enough to put in the time and effort to become a winning player.

[octaveshift]

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The harsh reality: you are a losing player. The good news: you've found this site.

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Agreed. The sooner you admit this, the faster you can change it.

I credit a single book for my transition from being a losing player to becoming a breakeven player, and on to a winning player. I have never seen anyone on this forum discuss it, but it was a suprising milestone for me. John Vorhaus's "Killer Poker Online" forced me too look at my game critically, and I found myself faced with a lot of huge *psychological* leaks in my game. You can check out some of his free articles here: http://www.thepokerforum.com/killpr.htm

As soon as I finished the book, I set a rule for myself. The rule was that I would make a final deposit of $200 into Party, and play as long as I could with it. If I got broke, I wouldn't reload until January 1, 2006. Needless to say, I was committed to turning my game around.

I made that deposit in March, and have never looked back. I went from a losing player, to a breakeven player, and now, a winning player. (My bankroll has grown large enough to support excursions into the 50s, where I have been testing the waters during the weekend.)

Post HHs to the forum, and listen to the replies you get. Don't get discouraged when you get nasty replies calling you a moron. You may not be a moron in real life, but if you can't at least breakeven on low level SNGs, you are certainly playing like one. Don't take it personally. We all started somewhere, and I have more respect for a newbie asking for advice than I do for a winning player who feels they have nothing left to learn.

If you are serious about your game, expect it to consume vast amounts of your time. Expect to go to bed playing hands in your head. Expect to spend money on books instead of buy-ins. Expect to be frustrated. Expect to spend a lot of time getting your head around complex situations. Most of all, expect to be rewarded for your efforts.

Poker is not a game, it's a pursuit.

Good luck in your journey.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
I credit a single book for my transition from being a losing player to becoming a breakeven player, and on to a winning player. I have never seen anyone on this forum discuss it, but it was a suprising milestone for me. John Vorhaus's "Killer Poker Online" forced me too look at my game critically, and I found myself faced with a lot of huge *psychological* leaks in my game.

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are you joking? this book has a rep as being terrible. i think you will do WAY better reading this forum than reading that book.

[octaveshift]

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are you joking? this book has a rep as being terrible. i think you will do WAY better reading this forum than reading that book.

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I am not kidding. Maybe it was the right message at the right time, but I found that it helped me tremendously. It's a psychology book more than anything.

I had some psychological hurdles to clear before focusing on strategy.

And to your point, I have gotten more from 2+2 than any book I have ever bought.

Edit: I should point out that I read Killer Poker Online BEFORE I read Killer Hold 'Em Poker. The main complaint that people had about KPO was that the best information in the book was recycled from KHEP. Not having read the other one, I didn't know this.

Anyway, I have them both now, and I think they are very helpful. If I had to suggest one over the other, I'd say get Killer Hold 'Em.

[dfoote]

I think the size of the individual reloads is important. A 9 buyin reload only gives you three or four shots before you start worrying about ruin. I know that playing knowing I had to cash or I'd bust affected my play.

[pergesu]

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I think the size of the individual reloads is important. A 9 buyin reload only gives you three or four shots before you start worrying about ruin. I know that playing knowing I had to cash or I'd bust affected my play.

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Except he doesn't bust, so it's not a big deal.

A roll is a roll, regardless of where you keep it. If he's willing to reload after losing what's in his account, then he doesn't bust.

There's only one thing for him to do, and it's got nothing to do with his roll or its management. He simply needs to become a better player.

[MrTrik]

I'm about break even at low limits. If you don't count expenses, books and things like PT, I'm a tad bit above water.

FWIW: I'd never attempt this BR management ... "100 at Party (to play $11)" . With the inevitable swings you are dead before you start.