B&M Player I Can't Figure Out

[jwg152]

I sat to the immediate right of this player for about 5 hrs. at the 20/40 holdem game at the Borgata. After talking with him extensively and seeing him play, here are some facts:

1. early 30's
2. regular in 20/40 40/80 80/160 at the Borgata - and appeared to be very respected by the locals for his play
3. well educated
4. raised UTG with q3s - told me it was to get action on his good cards from EP (played to showdown lost)
5. 3-bet J8s from MP (played to showdown won - 2 pair flop - filled on river)
6. Raised with AA in LP, called by BB, flop was A-rag-rag, BB checks, he checks, turn is a broadway card, BB checks, he checks gain, river is another broadway, BB checks - he bets, doesn't get called - shows me AA before he mucks it.
7. told me does not play internet poker
8. gave me a good tip on a small tell that I had - he was right and it was helpful.
9. he seemed very smart

What gives?

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I sat to the immediate right of this player for about 5 hrs. at the 20/40 holdem game at the Borgata. After talking with him extensively and seeing him play, here are some facts:

1. early 30's
2. regular in 20/40 40/80 80/160 at the Borgata - and appeared to be very respected by the locals for his play
3. well educated
4. raised UTG with q3s - told me it was to get action on his good cards from EP (played to showdown lost)
5. 3-bet J8s from MP (played to showdown won - 2 pair flop - filled on river)
6. Raised with AA in LP, called by BB, flop was A-rag-rag, BB checks, he checks, turn is a broadway card, BB checks, he checks gain, river is another broadway, BB checks - he bets, doesn't get called - shows me AA before he mucks it.
7. told me does not play internet poker
8. gave me a good tip on a small tell that I had - he was right and it was helpful.
9. he seemed very smart

What gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plays #6 and #7 make some semblance of sense in the right situation. As for the rest, such as 3-betting with J8s? I have serious doubts that someone who makes such plays with any frequency is a winning player. A 3-bet with this hand is 1-1.5BB wasted, depending on how well he plays postflop. That would kill the hourly win rate of even the best of players.

Then again, what the hell do I know? I'm just a lowly 2-4 online and 6-12 live player.

[pipster]

I would imagine many of his plays are calculated decisions... High limit players expect an UTG raise from a solid player to be AK, AA, KK, QQ and will fold almost any A/rag, etc. So maybe it was a blind steal from UTG, or some kind of draw, or some kind of image play like he said.

The J/8 could have been to try to blow someone off the hand on the flop if they missed, or just mixing it up some. The fact he was able to show it down for a full house could easily put someone on tilt.

A lot of players will tell you that if you ONLY 3 bet with major hands, and ONLY play monsters UTG, and ALWAYS check if you miss the flop, etc. You will get run over by the ones paying attention. So I assume this was what he was doing, mixing it up.

I mix it up in tournaments and NL all the time, because if I catch someone I can generally stack them with a surpise (such as play 3/4 suited for a raise UTG and flopping a straight vs their AK with top pair). I am sure he doesn't 3-bet J/8 suited, or raise UTG with Q/3 often... Just enough to keep everyone on their toes.

[xniNja]

I agree mostly with what pipster said. In higher limit games many incredibly good players seem like straight up maniacs. I'm not surprised by the 3 bet J8s, or checking the aces- to induce a bet. If he is in fact a great player & respected by the regulars, it's probably because he has learned the fine art of timing. Knowing when to 3-bet garbage and when to lay-down the 2nd nuts differentiates the great from the good. I wish I were there.

[pipster]

Amen... I would love to sit behind a true master of the game and watch every hand and discuss with him what he was thinking when he did that. TV does not do justice to the nuances of the game and the thoughts behind the bets.

[moomoocow]

Here's another possible story - He's independently incredible wealthy - does not need poker money. He knows how to play well and (as we can clearly see) is quite fearless. This ties is with the Q-3 hand (I know ppl who always see the flop with this, and 2-7o ... not at 80/160, but still). Also ties in with kindly revealing tell information. 3-betting J-8s jsut looks like a bad play which paid off, though.

[GFunk911]

[ QUOTE ]
Amen... I would love to sit behind a true master of the game and watch every hand and discuss with him what he was thinking when he did that. TV does not do justice to the nuances of the game and the thoughts behind the bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me Too. I'd kill a goat to see a couple hours of the big game from somebody's perspective, or a great internet or live player. You get a peek into that throguh hand histories here, but it's not the same.

[TM1212]

If he simply made these plays with Q3 and J8 and said nothing to anyone I would be inclined to believe he could very well be a very good high limit holdem player. More likely with his actions he’s a fish with deep pockets, and these deep "fearless" pockets confuse the locals into respecting him (or showing him respect to keep him at the tables). I draw these conclusions, because a winning player would not have revealed why he made a certain play to anyone. Why make a -EV play to change your image (plus telling u a tell u have -EV), then tell everyone you just did it to change your image (thus not changing your image)? is that an oxymoron?

Any way, as for others reasoning for the plays:

pipster

[ QUOTE ]

I would imagine many of his plays are calculated decisions... High limit players expect an UTG raise from a solid player to be AK, AA, KK, QQ and will fold almost any A/rag, etc. So maybe it was a blind steal from UTG, or some kind of draw, or some kind of image play like he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

A steal from UTG? A raise UTG can never be considered a steal, a show of strength maybe, a change of speed of course, BUT NEVER A STEAL. You don’t pick up Q3s utg and think... "[censored] Time to steal." And yes... It is "some king of draw", because he is behind any caller, but why that makes his play correct is beyond me.

[ QUOTE ]
The J/8 could have been to try to blow someone off the hand on the flop if they missed, or just mixing it up some. The fact he was able to show it down for a full house could easily put someone on tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate when people try to explain bad plays by saying... "it could put someone on tilt", after the retard gets lucky and hits a card. If i outdraw someone after i played 7-2 offsuit utg, they might go on tilt, but its still a bad play. Its a bad play unless hes playing really tight and can't get a hand paid off. Otherwise 3 betting J8 IS HORRIBLE! Raiseing and Reraiseing are very different. He will get at least one caller to the flop most of the time, and with the way you have described his play so far, i find it hard to believe he has a tight image. Plus if your going to play J8 you dont want to limit the felid you want more players in the pot, so when you flop your deceptive 2 pair and fill up on the river you get it paid off.

Also raiseing with hands such as 3 4 suited in a deep stacked NL game (125bb or more) gives you implied pot odds to play such a hand. you could easily bust a player with the right flop, or deceptive draw. In Limit holdem this is not true. u need more players in the hand in limit holdem to play 3/4, and then you will have better odds.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the rest, such as 3-betting with J8s? I have serious doubts that someone who makes such plays with any frequency is a winning player. A 3-bet with this hand is 1-1.5BB wasted, depending on how well he plays postflop. That would kill the hourly win rate of even the best of players.

[/ QUOTE ]


i saw clarkmeister 3bet a tightraiser with j8s. the key to his play was hitting his flush on the river.

[somapopper]

I think some unorthodox plays are good, but if he's a. respected, and b. telling you he's trying to appear looser than he intends to be, what's the point?

I wouldn't quickly discount if people respect him in a fairly big game though (I'm tempted to say that they just act like they respect him because he's the biggest fish around, but I don't actually think that's the case).

anyway, yeah, I dunno about this either.