|
|
|
|
#1
06-07-2005, 06:48 PM
|
|||
|
|||
He\'s a dealer & he should have known better, right?
I was playing at a mid-strip casino in Las Vegas last Thursday when the following hand came up in a 1-2 NL game. I raise it here in the forums because I think it illustrates just the kind of thing that one should more or less never have to tolerate in a poker game, a point that is made all the worse by the fact that the guy who committed the violation was an off-duty dealer in the very same card room.
The first orbit of a new game, I'm dealt red 8's in MP3 and see several limpers to me for $2 each. I limp as well, and see it raised to $12 by the button, who is an employee of the cardroom in question and is in the game as a player (wearing street clothes, FWIW). To my surprise, three players call the $12 (a combo of the BB & two of the limpers I think), so I call as well closing the action. We take a flop 5 handed with $60 or so in the pot after rake, and the board comes down 862, I think with two diamonds... but maybe rainbow. The action, in typical 1-2 NL style, is checked to me, and I check to the button (the off duty dealer) who I see loading up with chips before its on me to act. Sure enough, he bets half the pot, and is called by an EP player. Following the call, its folded to me and I have a simple choice between betting huge or betting all-in with my top set, as calling seems horrible and anything less than a pot sized raise would allow diamond and straight draws to continue. I move my stack of $188 in (thinking I'll get at least one caller), and button starts to look IRRITATED. Probably aces by the look of things, but maybe not. He swears quietly to himself a few times, and then commits a real fucktard act: he turns the ace of clubs face up, deliberately, and folds for the EP player to see, who still has a decision to make. He does this slowly and certainly knew what he was doing. Now, EP folded after some long thought and I won the pot, but in my book button's action is a pretty egregious violation regardless of the result. It would just be a d*ck move if it were a player who wanted to be disrespectful, but this was a dealer. He KNEW it was wrong, and yet deliberately did so anyhow. Then add in the fact that he was playing in his own card room. Could have been that EP was a regular and button was protecting him by providing info he was not entitled to, hard to say. The person dealing the game put out a weak admonition, but generally did a poor job protecting me and the other players. So anyhow, I called the floor, who issued a warning, and then I racked up my chips and left. The next hand a different player, again perhaps a regular, did the same fold face up after an all-in with players left to act, and was a real jerk about it. Am I wrong in thinking this is just way beyond the pale? Leave the dollar amounts aside and just think of process... 
|
|
#3
06-07-2005, 07:33 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: He\'s a dealer & he should have known better, right?
[ QUOTE ]
While it was certainly offly jewy of him to fold one card face up, I do believe it is legal to flip a card up during cash games. [/ QUOTE ] "jewy"? Sheesh. It's not legal multiway, that's for sure. Regards, T also, "awfully"
|
|
#4
06-07-2005, 07:41 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: He\'s a dealer & he should have known better, right?
[ QUOTE ]
While it was certainly offly jewy of him to fold one card face up, I do believe it is legal to flip a card up during cash games. [/ QUOTE ] I should start by adding that this took place in one of my favorite card rooms, and one that is extremely well managed. I was really surprised to see it happen, and while it sucked, I don't think any lower of the room for it. The guy was just being a jerk... Yes, it is legal to flip one or both cards up in most (all?) LV hold'em games if it is heads-up. This was multi-way, with a player all in (me), and a player left to act (EP). So the move was most certainly NOT legal. Or ethical. Or cool. Button's move folding one card down and the Ac face up gave EP information that he should never have had prior to acting on his own hand, and at the same time disadvantaged me. Any competent dealer knows this to be true, and surely this guy is a competent dealer (IMO they all are in this particular room).
|
|
#5
06-08-2005, 01:43 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: He\'s a dealer & he should have known better, right?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is legal to flip one or both cards up in most (all?) LV hold'em games if it is heads-up. This was multi-way, with a player all in (me), and a player left to act (EP). So the move was most certainly NOT legal. Or ethical. Or cool. Button's move folding one card down and the Ac face up gave EP information that he should never have had prior to acting on his own hand, and at the same time disadvantaged me. [/ QUOTE ] So what resolution do you suggest? Should the player be forced to call the all-in? Should the other player be forced to call? Should they both go get you a cheeseburger and a Coke? Obviously you see the problem here and why the move is not "illegal" since there is nothing that can be done about it outside of asking the guy to leave the game. If you think they were colluding, that is one thing. And if the floor made no effort to stop the disruptions... just get up and leave. But no rules were broken. The part about the pot being multi-way vs. heads-up is simply not true. Assuming no one throws you out the door you could do it every hand and you are not going to be forced to call or fold or do anything in the context of the current hand.
|
|
#6
06-08-2005, 03:46 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: He\'s a dealer & he should have known better, right?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Yes, it is legal to flip one or both cards up in most (all?) LV hold'em games if it is heads-up. This was multi-way, with a player all in (me), and a player left to act (EP). So the move was most certainly NOT legal. Or ethical. Or cool. Button's move folding one card down and the Ac face up gave EP information that he should never have had prior to acting on his own hand, and at the same time disadvantaged me. [/ QUOTE ] So what resolution do you suggest? Should the player be forced to call the all-in? Should the other player be forced to call? Should they both go get you a cheeseburger and a Coke? Obviously you see the problem here and why the move is not "illegal" since there is nothing that can be done about it outside of asking the guy to leave the game. If you think they were colluding, that is one thing. And if the floor made no effort to stop the disruptions... just get up and leave. But no rules were broken. The part about the pot being multi-way vs. heads-up is simply not true. Assuming no one throws you out the door you could do it every hand and you are not going to be forced to call or fold or do anything in the context of the current hand. [/ QUOTE ] Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Exposing a card with players left to act is illegal in terms of cardroom procedure, for the same reason saying what you had after you folded (while other players are still in the hand) is also illegal. Yes, the only resolution may be to ask the offender to leave, but that makes the action no less out of order. Think about the number of crimes in this country that are analagous, where there is no way to prevent the crime, just a way to punish it. Tax evasion, littering, etc. Can't be stopped, but they can be punished. Still illegal, bud. The "if it is heads-up" part of my post is true... ask any floor in the LV cardrooms and you'll see. I think in most cases your hand will be killed if you expose it before a showdown in a multi-way hand. As for the EP player who had yet to act, nothing can be done as far as him... he can still call or fold as he sees fit, but he did benefit unfairly through the wrongful act of the button. In terms of resolution, it should be the same as any other violation of the cardroom procedure - a warning, and then ejection from the game if necessary. If you say "man, I folded the ace of clubs" while a guy is contemplating calling an all-in bet with a king-high club frush, you'd be just as guilty, and you'd be warned in any reputable room, since you BROKE A RULE. Ugh. While I am reluctant to say so, yes this was the Aladdin. I do have to say that the room is extremely well run there, and that the floor guy was very professional in his handling of the situation. They spread all kinds of great games and tourneys at Aladdin, and I don't think this incident reflects poorly on the management or staff of the room at all -- it reflects only on one particular employee being a douchebag, and who knows WHY he did it.
|
|
#7
06-08-2005, 04:11 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: He\'s a dealer & he should have known better, right?
[ QUOTE ]
While I am reluctant to say so, yes this was the Aladdin. I do have to say that the room is extremely well run there, and that the floor guy was very professional in his handling of the situation. They spread all kinds of great games and tourneys at Aladdin, and I don't think this incident reflects poorly on the management or staff of the room at all -- it reflects only on one particular employee being a douchebag, and who knows WHY he did it. [/ QUOTE ] If this is the case, why did you leave right away? Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me if the dealer in question here didn't realize it was against the rules.
|
|
#8
06-08-2005, 04:22 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: He\'s a dealer & he should have known better, right?
[ QUOTE ]
I think in most cases your hand will be killed if you expose it before a showdown in a multi-way hand. [/ QUOTE ] I have never heard of this being the case anywhere. I am sure there are some cardrooms somewhere where they have this as a rule. But I have never seen this in anywhere I have ever played in Vegas or AC. Beyond that we are arguing semantics. If it is against cardroom procedure they can warn you and ask you to leave. I only said it was not "illegal" becuase doing it has no bearing for the play of the current hand not counting the disruption in the action the jerk just caused [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
|
|
#10
06-07-2005, 08:33 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: He\'s a dealer & he should have known better, right?
[ QUOTE ]
While it was certainly offly jewy of him to fold one card face up [/ QUOTE ] Am I the only one offended by this remark?
|
 |
|
|
Hybrid Mode
