Pocket 99s

mojobluesman · #1 06-07-2005, 03:06 PM

Please excuse the check and fold on the flop. I was multi-tabling for the first time and went into a coma. However, while reviewing the hand after the fact, I found that it would have been very difficult to deal with even if I had attempted to play it.

The pot was fairly large because of a pre-flop raiser.

A straight flush draw flopped.

I'm 2nd to act against a possible straight and possible flush (almost certainly draws to 1 or both if they aren't already out), 5 potential overcards to my pocket 99s, and a pre flop raiser that could already have me beaten with a higher pair.

Obviously, even if I am ahead at this point I am in very deep trouble with only 2 outs to a redraw and a million ways to lose. I may also already be toast.

A bet on my part would do nothing to protect my hand. In fact, even if I bet and the pre-flop raiser raised me, that would not protect my hand from open ended straight and flush draws. The best it would do is knock out a few overcards that weren't also flush draws. In fact, if he raised me I'd be tempted to fold because it could be an indication he had a pair (which most likely would be higher than mine because he was the pre flop raiser).

I also don't see how a check raise to protect could work from this position.

Usually when I'm in a situation like this, if I'm going to play, I try to get myself into a situation where I wait for the turn to raise to protect my hand. From this position, I don't see how that was possible either.

Any suggestions?

Now let's assume I bet and the pre flop raiser raises.

Do I fold on the assumption that he probably has me beat?

If I bet, he calls and someone else raises with either a STR8/Flush value raise or a raise because they already have it then what?

It seems to me that if I bet I was likely to get involved in a huge pot that I was likely to lose (and could even be drawing practically dead in).

However, check/fold seems so darn weak that it probably wasn't right either.

I will post the rest of the hand and further questions afterwards.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, 3 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, BB folds, Hero folds.

shadow29 · #2 06-07-2005, 03:09 PM

You need to raise this pf. Especially at 1/2.

I think that the fold is fine.

edit- ignore me, I'm a weak tight pussy. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

mojobluesman · #3 06-07-2005, 03:17 PM

I understand the rationale behind raising 99s and TTs from early position on these slightly tighter tables. Obviously we want fewer opponents. However, very few of the cookie cutter pre flop charts suggest raising 99s and some don't even suggest raising TTs. Even the chart from ITH (Hilger), which is more sensitive to how many callers there are prior to you and whether or not you are first in suggests just a call with 99s and TTs from EP.

I guess my skill level is still suspect enough that I don't feel confident playing the middle pairs. I am reluctant to raise at this stage.

Would you also raise from EP with 88s?

What about 88s, 99s, TTs if you are not first in?

A limp before?
A raise before?

TY in advance.

shadow29 · #4 06-07-2005, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the rationale behind raising 99s and TTs from early position on these slightly tighter tables.

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At loose tables too.

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Obviously we want fewer opponents.

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Not exactly.

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However, very few of the cookie cutter pre flop charts suggest raising 99s and some don't even suggest raising TTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

These charts are for weak/tight sissys.

[ QUOTE ]
Even the chart from ITH (Hilger), which is more sensitive to how many callers there are prior to you and whether or not you are first in suggests just a call with 99s and TTs from EP.

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Hilger's book is great. But you have to filter out some of the stuff that is wrong or weak/tight.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my skill level is still suspect enough that I don't feel confident playing the middle pairs. I am reluctant to raise at this stage.

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You don't have to be a maestro to play these cards. You have a value raise against the field.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you also raise from EP with 88s?

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I don't, but others do.

[ QUOTE ]
What about 88s, 99s, TTs if you are not first in?

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Limpers are pussies. Raise I raise 99 and TT after almost all limpers. 88 I just limp.

Against a raise I generally fold/cc 88, fold/cc/3-bet 99, cc/3-bet TT. It depends on the limpers before and the raiser.

mchilger · #5 06-08-2005, 08:09 AM

just to chime in here. There are many situations in Hold'em where it is too simple to say Always raise or Always call.

For example, which is a better scenario, raising with 99 and getting 2 callers or limping with 99 and getting 4 callers? Limping would be better in this case.

What about, raising with 99 and getting 1 caller or limping with 99 and getting 2 callers. Raising would be better in this case.

Without getting too complex, another factor is what type of experience you have as a player.

The type of game and the type of player you are dictates the best strategy. My book recommends that beginning to intermediate players limp with medium pairs. This is the "standard" play indicated in the charts. However, on page 98, I also discuss plays for advanced players from early position which includes raising with medium pairs 77 and higher.

My charts are just a guide intended for beginning to intermediate players and there is a lot of text which discusses situations where you should stray from the guidelines.

All of the following will impact my decision on whether or not to raise from early position with a medium pair:
- The type of game (loose vs. tight and aggressive vs. passive)
- The types of players I am against
- The type of player in the big blind
- My table image

Matthew

billy51 · #6 06-07-2005, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You need to raise this pf. Especially at 1/2.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why? and why especially at 1/2? I almost always limp with 99 UTG in an attempt to encourage multiway action. I know there is an argument for raising for value, but I think that our edge is very thin, and I think there is usually more value in trying for a multiway pot.

MrWookie47 · #7 06-07-2005, 03:25 PM

99 does great against 1-2 opponents, or against 5+ opponents. When you limp UTG, you have no idea how many opponents you'll get. When you raise, you increase the likelihood that you'll get fewer, which is good. Opponents at 1/2 tend to be tighter, so this chance is further increased.

shadow29 · #8 06-07-2005, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to raise this pf. Especially at 1/2.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why? and why especially at 1/2? I almost always limp with 99 UTG in an attempt to encourage multiway action. I know there is an argument for raising for value, but I think that our edge is very thin, and I think there is usually more value in trying for a multiway pot.

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1/2 is tight. I'm more inclined to play more loosely in a tight game. Also, you'll get people to fold hands that you wouldn't want them ccing with since there are fewer ccs at 1/2. Also, the edge is not very thin. It is big enough to raise for value pf.

Aaron W. · #9 06-07-2005, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You need to raise this pf. Especially at 1/2.

I think that the fold is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding is weak here. You've got the best hand something like 70% of the time.

shadow29 · #10 06-07-2005, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to raise this pf. Especially at 1/2.

I think that the fold is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding is weak here. You've got the best hand something like 70% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not often I get blasted for being weak. That made my day, Aaron. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I read your previous post and I am forced to retract my first post in this thread. That's a good post (and it takes a very good post to get me to change my mind [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).