Crabs at Ocean's Eleven

[mikelow]

Playing 20-40 at Ocean's Eleven, I get 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] on the button. Having not played there in some time, it;s hard for me to get a read on the players. An EP limps, a MP limps, and the cutoff raises. I call (?) hoping to keep the blinds in to get 5 players in the pot, in case a three flops. Well, they oblige and call as do EP and MP. 10 small bets in the flop (less the drop). The flop is:

8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

A nice flop, but as is often the case when you flop a set, there
are many draws possible. Checked to the cutoff who bets. I raise, SB folds, BB and EP call cold and the cutoff three-bets (looks like a big pair). I cap and the big blind calls. EP folds and the cutoff calls. Twelve big bets in the pot now. I think a flush draw is out there. Turn is:

[8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]] K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

I don't like this at all. But it's checked to me and I decide to bet. BB calls and the cutoff raises. Could be a set of kings or a flush. I call and the BB calls. Comments?

[Ulysses]

Boy, that's a tough call pre-flop. I probably muck. But I like the button. And I like pairs. And I don't mind playing this 5-way for 2 bets each. But I'd hate playing this 3-way for 3 bets each. Really depends a lot on your read on the rest of the pre-flop action, but I think this is a tough call.

The first raise is automatic w/ bottom set on this board. I'd usually 4-bet in your place here, but sometimes I might smooth call the re-raise. EP's fold is strange. Maybe a small flush draw or weak pair/weak draw?

I'd do the same thing on the turn as you. Sure, the flop betting smells like a flush might be out there, but there's a wide range of other hands they could just as easily have - for example A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] and A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img].

I think this hand illustrates why small pairs are such a tough call in this type of situation. I think many players (myself included) often overvalue the implied odds of those small pairs by not giving enough thought to the times like this when we flop a set but can only push the hand so far.

[astroglide]

"I think this hand illustrates why small pairs are such a tough call in this type of situation. I think many players (myself included) often overvalue the implied odds of those small pairs by not giving enough thought to the times like this when we flop a set but can only push the hand so far."

it's 8:1 to flop a set, and you don't even win every time you flop one (case in point here). it's POSSIBLY 5:1 here, with the need to not only get over the set odds inadequacy but to DOUBLE it because of the raise.

[Ulysses]

That's exactly what I was getting at. Making up those bets is a lot harder with "fragile" sets like this.

To clarify, when I wrote "tough call," I meant "it's tough to make that call" not "it's a tough decision whether to call or not." In my vague and imprecise terminology, I'd put "tough call" roughly in the middle between "it's a toss-up" and "bad call."

[astroglide]

i wasn't misreading, i was agreeing and expanding [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Tommy Angelo]

Calling before the flop in this situation is like raising before the flop with AA or folding with 7-2. It's the common play, it's the break even play, because it's what most everyone does. Sometimes, like with AA, or with 7-2, the common play is far and away better than the options, so we resign our fate to the dull and usual, and make the play. But that's merely a way of not losing ground. It's no way to win a race.

Reraising before the flop in this situation comes with so many bonuses, short range and long, that it stands out to me as the best choice. Forget about hitting sets. Forget about letting the blinds in or not. Forget about this hand and this flop and these players, forget about everything except the cost, one bet, and the gains, the gains that cannot be known until the reraise is made, over and over, for years, until you train everyone in the world to check to you in the catbird seat.

Tommy

[Tyler Durden]

Tommy, I don't understand why you'd want to reraise preflop. 33 is an underdog to AKo and AKs. You may put the initial raiser on the defensive but if he has a legitimate raising hand, it's likely he will be ahead after the flop. And postflop, he's likely to call you down when it's heads up.

I'd probably coldcall preflop. I should learn to muck in this situation.

[mike l.]

"Tommy, I don't understand why you'd want to reraise preflop. 33 is an underdog to AKo and AKs. You may put the initial raiser on the defensive but if he has a legitimate raising hand, it's likely he will be ahead after the flop. And postflop, he's likely to call you down when it's heads up."

im not tommy, just a student of his. one of about a thousand on here. anyway, a cutoff here after all these limpers can have a lot of different hands theyre raising w/. hands that play well multiway, hands they perceive to be good in this position even if theyre not really (i know a lot of 20-40 players that would auto raise here w/ KTo and a lot of suited hands as well as any pair and too many unsuited aces). also some limpers and blinds will fold when it comes back to them for 2 bets cold or fold easily on messy flops if they hit less than top pair and perceive strength. tommy's reasoning is probably something more along the lines of constant shows of strength in the best position and constant shows of unwillingness to gamble in bad positions. for instance he once relayed to the list what he considered an ideal way to start out at a table: auto-fold the big and small blind and then raise on the button without looking.


"I'd probably coldcall preflop. I should learn to muck in this situation."

wrong. this is a very easy call here. you will get at least 5 to 1 and that's more than good enough implied odds to flop a set which will be worth far more than the about 8 to 1 you need to flop one. plus this is a very easy hand to get away from when you dont flop w/ that many players in. mucking here is a mistake.

[Tommy Angelo]

"33 is an underdog to AKo and AKs."

I'm not sure what you mean by underdog. Let's take a different situation. Full table. One guy raises, someone behind him reraises, and it comes down to those two players, heads up. One player has AK and the other has 33. Where do we want to be, and with what? We have four situations:

1) AK first to act

2) AK last to act

3) 33 first to act

4) 33 last to act.

I think 4 and 2 are at least a one-big-bet-per-hand favorite, counting from the flop on, over 1 and 3.

"You may put the initial raiser on the defensive but if he has a legitimate raising hand, it's likely he will be ahead after the flop."

Really?

"And postflop, he's likely to call you down when it's heads up."

Good! It's very doubtful I'll be betting the worst hand. That's part of why I want to be last.

Tommy

[mike l.]

"Forget about this hand and this flop and these players, forget about everything except the cost, one bet, and the gains, the gains that cannot be known until the reraise is made, over and over, for years, until you train everyone in the world to check to you in the catbird seat."

while youre busy forgetting about stuff (like pot and implied odds) also forget about the part where people auto-check to you on the button after you reraise preflop.

sure if you play an outstanding postflop game (like tommy) players will check to you more cause theyre scared of your skill (plus excellent hand reading skills will keep you in money reraising w/ things like 33).

but if youre a more average sort of winning player (or worse) get ready to see observant skilled players (and even observant fish) start noticing and trying to play back against your liberal late position raising and reraising standards.

definitely not a good play for most players to make a habit of "over and over, for years".