Like the flush draw line

imported_AAcheckraise · #1 06-01-2005, 11:45 PM

raiser postflop is TA

Should I raise rather than call when betting the flush???
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.5. MP2 posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 raises, CO (poster) calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, CO folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (16.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

tinhat · #2 06-02-2005, 12:01 AM

Commenting only on the flop play, given the situation, besides the draw you're kinda weak. Therefore IMM there's nothing to be gained by knocking people out reraising. What's worse is that you'd risk losing your edge by doing so....

Mike

gvibes · #3 06-02-2005, 12:07 AM

3-bet the flop for value. We don't care if we knock people out. We will definitely get enough callers to make the raise for value.

milesdyson · #4 06-02-2005, 12:16 AM

Well I think we're obviously behind to MP3 and our K and Q outs mean absolutely nothing. When it gets to hero, 3 players have put money into the pot, and I want to keep as many in as I can. I also don't see us getting a free card very often if we 3-bet this flop. That said, I don't think 3-betting is bad... but I like how this hand is played.

tinhat · #5 06-02-2005, 12:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop for value. We don't care if we knock people out. We will definitely get enough callers to make the raise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Besides the hand not standing up UI, how is two callers (assuming it's two and not one) for a flush draw still for value? Is it just because the pot's large, so try everything to win it ASAP?

Mike

UncleSalty · #6 06-02-2005, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop for value. We don't care if we knock people out. We will definitely get enough callers to make the raise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Besides the hand not standing up UI, how is two callers (assuming it's two and not one) for a flush draw still for value? Is it just because the pot's large, so try everything to win it ASAP?

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Callers means Hero's fair share is 33% while his equity is ~35%. Certainly we'd prefer 3 callers or more, but this is certainly a 3-bet situation in my mind.

matt42s · #7 06-02-2005, 12:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop for value. We don't care if we knock people out. We will definitely get enough callers to make the raise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Besides the hand not standing up UI, how is two callers (assuming it's two and not one) for a flush draw still for value? Is it just because the pot's large, so try everything to win it ASAP?

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Callers means Hero's fair share is 33% while his equity is ~35%. Certainly we'd prefer 3 callers or more, but this is certainly a 3-bet situation in my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

~35% is your pot equity.
Your chance of hitting the turn is ~20% Thats the number you need to compare for a value raise on the flop. (I think)

UncleSalty · #8 06-02-2005, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop for value. We don't care if we knock people out. We will definitely get enough callers to make the raise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Besides the hand not standing up UI, how is two callers (assuming it's two and not one) for a flush draw still for value? Is it just because the pot's large, so try everything to win it ASAP?

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Callers means Hero's fair share is 33% while his equity is ~35%. Certainly we'd prefer 3 callers or more, but this is certainly a 3-bet situation in my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

~35% is your pot equity.
Your chance of hitting the turn is ~20% Thats the number you need to compare for a value raise on the flop. (I think)

[/ QUOTE ]

The 20% chance to hit the turn indicates that you need ~4:1 pot odds to justify CALLING a bet. The fact that you currently have a pot equity edge is what justifies RAISING.

Somebody back me up on this. (Man I hope GrunchCan gets back soon.)

tinhat · #9 06-02-2005, 12:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop for value. We don't care if we knock people out. We will definitely get enough callers to make the raise for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Besides the hand not standing up UI, how is two callers (assuming it's two and not one) for a flush draw still for value? Is it just because the pot's large, so try everything to win it ASAP?

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

2 Callers means Hero's fair share is 33% while his equity is ~35%. Certainly we'd prefer 3 callers or more, but this is certainly

[/ QUOTE ]

But if the point isn't to try and win the pot ASAP (maybe it is), with a hand that only has one thing going for it why trade (I don't have the hand up) something like a 15% edge for a small deficit? It just sounds contradictory to me, like trying to eliminate pf callers when you have 33...

Mike

UncleSalty · #10 06-02-2005, 01:04 AM

No, the point isn't to win the pot ASAP. (That simply isn't going to happen.) You're not trying to knock people out, you're hoping that as many call as possible. All I am saying is that you really only need 2 people minimum to make a re-raise profitable, and I think given the texture of the board and the number of opponents, a 3-bet is how I would play it.

I can see calling to keep customers since all we have is a draw, but it's not the play I would make.