Done with stud....

boondockst · #1 05-28-2005, 05:14 AM

After churning up about 150 BB, I'm now on a 200BB+ downswing over the past few days in 1/2 6max stud on party...My bankroll is shot. The beats are increasingly sick. The game is either tough or the looseness makes every hand i make irrelevant. I know others get in this spot and i used to laugh at it but I've had streaks of 40+ hands w/o a win in a 6max game routinely now. At one point, I went 90 hands w/o a win. I've tried every strategy i know. Raising to isolate. Keeping the pot small to deny drawing odds. Check-raising. Only playing extremely strong hands...It doesn't matter..The hands i don't enter, an unimproved pair of aces beats an unimproved pair of kings that was bet on every street.

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.50 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (1.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___brings-in
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (6.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___raises
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___bets___SHOWN___calls

5th Street - (12.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___bets___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___calls___SHOWN___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___calls___SHOWN___calls
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___checks___SHOWN___raises

6th Street - (30.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___SHOWN___bets
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls

River - (37.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___SHOWN___folds
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___SHOWN___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls

Total pot: (42.25 BB)

Villain started with 7 2 A rainbow for the runner runner runner full house

beta1607 · #2 05-28-2005, 05:52 AM

Your frustraded right now which is normal.

I had a huge -BB streak this weak that was well over 1K of money. Only part of that is due to me getting sucked out on the majority was from being a tilt monkey or simply out played. I decided to take a break from stud and played some hold em for a change of pace got my mind set straight and then played better then I ever played in stud before.

I If you are going 40-90 hands without a win, only so much of that can be attributed to the beats and a cold deck. Stud requires far more thought then hold em at similar levels so go play some of that for a couple days, then have another stud session - post some hands with difficult decisions here and you will start to dominate the 1/2 stud again.

edit: Isn't the 1/2 structure really bad at party? That could be part of the problem?

SittingBull · #3 05-28-2005, 01:15 PM

complex than hold'em?If so,would u say it takes much longer to be a proficient stud player than a proficient hold'em player at comparable levels?
Hmm
Just wondering,
SittingBull

beta1607 · #4 05-28-2005, 04:06 PM

Yes and Yes. I will use 5/10 and 3/6 as examples because that is what I am most familiar with. Using programs like 'pokertracker' many players can easily auto pilot 4-12 tables of hold em where as I think even the best stud player loses a lot by playing more then 2. In hold em a basic thing like figuring pot odds is 1000 times easier given that there is no dead cards one must keep track of. I also think that there is more of an edge to an "expert" stud player over an average or poor opponent then in hold em. Let nobody forget Phil Ivey cut his teeth on the stud games in Atlantic city and he is now arguably the best all around player in the world.

bygmesterf · #5 05-28-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

edit: Isn't the 1/2 structure really bad at party? That could be part of the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the 1/2 stucture at party is very similar to the $40/80 structure in an B&M. It's a great structure that encourages loose agressive play. If you try to be tight, the ante's will eat you up. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

BeerMoney · #6 05-28-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

edit: Isn't the 1/2 structure really bad at party? That could be part of the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the 1/2 stucture at party is very similar to the $40/80 structure in an B&M. It's a great structure that encourages loose agressive play. If you try to be tight, the ante's will eat you up. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're saying a B&M is going to have a $10 ante in a $40/$80 game with a $20 bring in?

I would also like to point out to the original poster that he should check out PokerStars. From greenage's post, it looks like they have a very good structure for low limit games.

boondockst · #7 05-29-2005, 03:48 AM

good structure as in conducive to waiting for good hands to come in?

Do the other players stay loose?

MRBAA · #8 05-29-2005, 11:06 AM

I've been playing a bit of 1-2 lately after over-cashing out, hitting a downswing at 3-6 and deciding to see if I could play my way back up. THESE GAMES ARE VERY CRUSHABLE. And I say this despite taking my share of beats etc. Most players in this game enter way too many pots and call way too much after that. Look for players who will fold, sure, but mostly wait for strong hands -- the $20, $30 and even $40 pots you win will more than make up for the ante. Of course, don't just be a mindless rock. Calibrate your play to the players. But remember - do most of your betting when you WANT to get called. And don't call them in small pots when you could be behind. Hands like (Q7)A are really bad in this game -- you want draws or pairs because where you really make your money is hitting big (given the situation) hands and getting called by 2-or 3 loose gooses who just "have to" keep you honest. Remember also that the game changes hugely when there are 5 loose players at the table versus when it goes to 3 handed or head up. If you can adjust, you will win. There is still no game where my win rate is higher.

Michael Emery · #9 05-28-2005, 06:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]

After churning up about 150 BB, I'm now on a 200BB+ downswing

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats neither a large win streak or a large losing streak for stud. Keep your head up and continue to play well, things will change. Quitters never win....or something like that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Mike Emery

boondockst · #10 05-28-2005, 07:16 AM

I like the bad structure at party but I can't seem to get on the good end of it lately. I swear, the hands i'm not in, any two pair works, yet the really hot cards come out for my opponents in the hands I'm in.

I either:

Start out with rags.
Have a playable hand but too many outs are dead (even for 6max)
AKQs gets a 7 and 2 on 4th and 5th
My opponents all make open high pairs on 4th and 5th.
I'm sucked out on the river.
I was way behind and couldn't catch up.

Great example:

For some reason i got aggressive on this hand and was for once rewarded with a SCARY board. When i saw how i lost, I was in complete shock. That's right. Out of 1560 possible rivers, I win 1514 of them. I have three tens, a flush draw and obviously if he does miraculously catch one of the two remaining kings, I can catch any of 3 full houses or quads. (Seat 5 was completing with any 3 + TILT + cold deck = give it a shot)

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=972023
pokenum -7s kh kc jh 3d 9d 8d - ac 3c td th 8c tc
7-card Stud Hi: 1560 enumerated outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc 9d 8d 3d Kh Jh 46 2.95 1514 97.05 0 0.00 0.029
Ac Tc 8c 3c Td Th 1514 97.05 46 2.95 0 0.00 0.971

7 Card Stud High ($1/$2), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.50 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (1.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___SHOWN___brings-in___SHOWN___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls___SHOWN___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___completes
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls

4th Street - (12.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___double bets
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___SHOWN___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (13.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___SHOWN___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls

6th Street - (20.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___SHOWN___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___SHOWN___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___SHOWN___calls

River - (27.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___SHOWN___raises
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___SHOWN___bets___SHOWN___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___SHOWN___folds

Total pot: (35.50 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $35.5 | Rake: $1

Seat 1: [ Kh Kc Jh 3d 9d 8d Kd ] [ three of a kind, kings -- Kh,Kc,Kd,Jh,9d ]

Hero: [ Ac 3c Td Th 8c Tc 5h ] [ three of a kind, tens -- Ac,Td,Th,Tc,8c ]