Standard?

hockey1 · #1 05-16-2005, 09:46 AM

Nothing spectacular, just a check-up. Preflop limp is marginal, but the table was loose-passive preflop, so I figured I'd get it 4 or 5 way for 1 or 2 bets, with decent position. All comments appreciated:

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, CO raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, BB folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 7c 6c (flush, king high).
CO has Kh Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.50 BB.

YoureToast · #2 05-16-2005, 10:35 AM

I like it. You check cuz you have a weak flush draw and don't want the preflop raiser to knock out the rest of the action; but then you reverse course and raise the bettor for value and get your requisite callers, although damaged somewhat by the 3 bet. You recognize the risk of being outflushed so you just call the 3 bet. On the turn you call the ugly turn card. On the river you bet for value. No way a decent player bets if you check so you get your bet in.

Was that how you thought about the hand?

hockey1 · #3 05-16-2005, 11:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like it. You check cuz you have a weak flush draw and don't want the preflop raiser to knock out the rest of the action; but then you reverse course and raise the bettor for value and get your requisite callers, although damaged somewhat by the 3 bet. You recognize the risk of being outflushed so you just call the 3 bet. On the turn you call the ugly turn card. On the river you bet for value. No way a decent player bets if you check so you get your bet in.

Was that how you thought about the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a nutshell, exactly. The only thing I'd add is that there was no point betting out on this flop because I had no outs to clean up -- it was the flush or nada.

Paluka · #4 05-16-2005, 11:37 AM

I don't like the flop checkraise at all- you will get 3 bet a lot and if you are "lucky" enough to get guys call 2 cold it becomes a lot more likely you don't have the best flush draw.

hockey1 · #5 05-16-2005, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Poster: Paluka
Subject: Re: Standard?

I don't like the flop checkraise at all- you will get 3 bet a lot and if you are "lucky" enough to get guys call 2 cold it becomes a lot more likely you don't have the best flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold on a second. By the time CO 3-bets the flop there are TWENTY-ONE SBs in the pot. With the flush draw being the only draw out there, it wouldn't be that incorrect for anybody with any piece of the board to call the 2 more SBs, and if only two players do, then its significantly +EV for me to raise. (Admittedly, that changes somewhat if someone has a better flush draw or if CO has a set, which he did)

piggity · #6 05-16-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(Admittedly, that changes somewhat if someone has a better flush draw or if CO has a set, which he did)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi hockey,

I think that's what Paluka is saying. With a flop like that, the most likely callers of 2 cold will be better flush draws.

I don't like the flop checkraise either.

koa · #7 05-16-2005, 01:18 PM

Nice pot. I didn't like the flop check raise just cause you were out of position and would not be able to get a free card, you were probably better of drawing for as cheap as you can with that hand

Paluka · #8 05-16-2005, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Poster: Paluka
Subject: Re: Standard?

I don't like the flop checkraise at all- you will get 3 bet a lot and if you are "lucky" enough to get guys call 2 cold it becomes a lot more likely you don't have the best flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold on a second. By the time CO 3-bets the flop there are TWENTY-ONE SBs in the pot. With the flush draw being the only draw out there, it wouldn't be that incorrect for anybody with any piece of the board to call the 2 more SBs, and if only two players do, then its significantly +EV for me to raise. (Admittedly, that changes somewhat if someone has a better flush draw or if CO has a set, which he did)

[/ QUOTE ]

Your checkraise of the entire field is going to look pretty scary to some people, and then the 3 bet is terrifying. I think you overestimate how many people are going to want to call 2 cold here. And saying that "calling 2 cold" is probably correct with any piece because the pot is big doesn't help us, because you can't make assumptions that your opponents are going to play correctly. There are many mediocre players who just won't call 2 cold on flops despite the odds unless they really like their hands. And of course some guys will call 2 cold with nothing.

koa · #9 05-16-2005, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Poster: Paluka
Subject: Re: Standard?

I don't like the flop checkraise at all- you will get 3 bet a lot and if you are "lucky" enough to get guys call 2 cold it becomes a lot more likely you don't have the best flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold on a second. By the time CO 3-bets the flop there are TWENTY-ONE SBs in the pot. With the flush draw being the only draw out there, it wouldn't be that incorrect for anybody with any piece of the board to call the 2 more SBs, and if only two players do, then its significantly +EV for me to raise. (Admittedly, that changes somewhat if someone has a better flush draw or if CO has a set, which he did)

[/ QUOTE ]

Your checkraise of the entire field is going to look pretty scary to some people, and then the 3 bet is terrifying. I think you overestimate how many people are going to want to call 2 cold here. And saying that "calling 2 cold" is probably correct with any piece because the pot is big doesn't help us, because you can't make assumptions that your opponents are going to play correctly. There are many mediocre players who just won't call 2 cold on flops despite the odds unless they really like their hands. And of course some guys will call 2 cold with nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have 2-3 off I'm not calling 2 bets cold just cause I hit a piece of the flop. With the flop 3 bet someone at least has two pair or a flush draw (taking two outs away) or even worst trips which makes near dead.

YoureToast · #10 05-16-2005, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop checkraise at all- you will get 3 bet a lot and if you are "lucky" enough to get guys call 2 cold it becomes a lot more likely you don't have the best flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its a close call, but I disagree that you get 3 bet "a lot"....This was checked to the preflop raiser who could just be autobetting. So if its not 3 bet, you likely get 4 callers behind you. I agree if you do get 3 bet here, its generally bad news but I don't think its likely in this case. Also note that the hero had a backdoor disguised straight flush draw as well which adds to the strength of his hand. Bottom line: I think its close and it may come down to how aggressive the PFR is postflop -- if aggressive, clearly just call; if more passive and an autobetter, a raise is probably profitable.